# Reincarnation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2003, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716 "2003-12-30T05:50:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/101 "2004-01-02T07:33:10Z")
Say hypothetically IPUs do exist, but there is no way to observe them scientifically. Besides being invisible to the entire electromagnetic spectrum, they are also massless, solid matter passes directly through them, etc. No way to prove that they exist but no way to prove that they don’t. Now suppose somebody discovers a drug that induces some kind of change in the brain so that, by a mechanism currently unknown to science, people on a trip are capable of seeing IPUs clearly and unambiguously. But again there’s no way to prove that the brain is seeing something that’s actually there, because the changes that enable it to do so are undetectable by present day scientific apparatus. How can one prove or disprove the existence of IPUs? Actually, IPUs are a lot like neutrinos in that respect, except that very very rarely (a few out of every billion or so, IIRC) the odd neutrino happens to smash into an atom’s nucleus just right and induces a detectable change. Were it not for that quirk would neutrinos even be anything more than a theory? I am not trying to say that IPUs exist, nor am I trying to say that **Question** ’s posts make any sense, but it’s certainly a thought worth pondering. ---
**Author:** ![Spurious\_George](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Spurious\_George](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spurious_George)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/102 "2004-01-02T07:33:33Z")
Dude. I just looked to my left and saw _my own reflection staring back at me from my closet mirror!!_ All has been made clear!! ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/103 "2004-01-02T07:41:15Z")
[Otto] You know, they call 'em fingers but I’ve never seen them fing oh wait…there they go [/Otto] ---
**Author:** ![Question](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ecc23a/32.png) [@Question](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Question)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/104 "2004-01-02T07:44:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cityboy916 \* > \*\*Say hypothetically IPUs do exist, but there is no way to observe them scientifically. Besides being invisible to the entire electromagnetic spectrum, they are also massless, solid matter passes directly through them, etc. No way to prove that they exist but no way to prove that they don’t. > > Now suppose somebody discovers a drug that induces some kind of change in the brain so that, by a mechanism currently unknown to science, people on a trip are capable of seeing IPUs clearly and unambiguously. But again there’s no way to prove that the brain is seeing something that’s actually there, because the changes that enable it to do so are undetectable by present day scientific apparatus. How can one prove or disprove the existence of IPUs? > > Actually, IPUs are a lot like neutrinos in that respect, except that very very rarely (a few out of every billion or so, IIRC) the odd neutrino happens to smash into an atom’s nucleus just right and induces a detectable change. Were it not for that quirk would neutrinos even be anything more than a theory? > > I am not trying to say that IPUs exist, nor am I trying to say that **Question** ’s posts make any sense, but it’s certainly a thought worth pondering. \*\* cityboy you have an exceptional physical mind, so i am certain that you will understand the following… but first you must stare to the right… do not let your eyes wander from that point until the truth has been revealed… the proof that the IPU exists is right in front of you… reality as we know it is our perception of the collapsing wavefunction… before our observation there is nothing but totality in a quantum state and in such a state anything is possible, including invisible pink unicorns… ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/105 "2004-01-02T08:38:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crown Prince of Irony \* > \*\* > I give up. Let’s just say that your understanding of physics has yet to occur. \*\* \ BWAHAHAHAHAHA!. BWAHAHAHA!..Wooooo! ::wiping tears from my eyes. Spurts milk out nose:: Jeez man. That’s a good one. Damn, my keyboard is covered with milk. Slee ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/106 "2004-01-02T13:59:12Z")
\*\*sampiro[/], your glass door post was a thing of beauty; thanks! I might use it as a metaphor when I’m talking about such matters with people. **Brutus** said: > [@](#): > > Hah! I always knew that Satan was a Leftist! Be fair, now: from this thread, we’ve learned that **lunatics** think Satan is a leftist. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Question](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ecc23a/32.png) [@Question](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Question)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/107 "2004-01-02T14:02:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Left Hand of Dorkness \* > \*\*\*\*sampiro[/], your glass door post was a thing of beauty; thanks! I might use it as a metaphor when I’m talking about such matters with people. > > **Brutus** said: > > Be fair, now: from this thread, we’ve learned that **lunatics** think Satan is a leftist. > > Daniel \*\* and we all know a lunatic couldn’t possible ever be right 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/108 "2004-01-02T14:02:49Z")
Crap! Damn this posting before my coffee kicks in! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Question](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ecc23a/32.png) [@Question](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Question)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/109 "2004-01-02T14:04:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Question \* > \*\*and we all know a lunatic couldn’t possible ever be right 😃 \*\* oops ! i meant possibly … well actually i didn’t … because it is possible for a lunatic to be right … i’m sure you understand … ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/110 "2004-01-02T14:05:37Z")
See! And now we’ve learned that the same person thinks you don’t have lunatics on the right! Consider the source, **Brutus** and boo-yah! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Question](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ecc23a/32.png) [@Question](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Question)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/111 "2004-01-02T14:07:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Left Hand of Dorkness \* > \*\*Crap! Damn this posting before my coffee kicks in! > Daniel \*\* whoa ! what an unpossibly strange coincidence that we both made an error at such a close proximity in “time” … NOT ! hahaha… ---
**Author:** ![Question](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ecc23a/32.png) [@Question](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Question)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/112 "2004-01-02T14:09:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Left Hand of Dorkness \* > \*\*See! And now we’ve learned that the same person thinks you don’t have lunatics on the right! > > Consider the source, **Brutus** and boo-yah! > > Daniel \*\* these astounding coincidences abound ! what are the chances that this could continue ? very good, i am thinking … ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/113 "2004-01-02T14:30:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cityboy916 \* > \*\*I am not trying to say that IPUs exist, nor am I trying to say that **Question** ’s posts make any sense, but it’s certainly a thought worth pondering. \*\* No, they wouldn’t, but they’d still have a leg up on IPUs. Because in the case of neutrinos we have a large theory that seems to be testing out in every testable way that also indicates that neutrinos _should_ exist, even if we can’t reliably detect them. There is no such case for IPUs. It is the difference between saying “I think IPUs exist because that would be cool” and “I think IPUs exist because they would be a consequence of theory X, a theory that _has been tested_ in these other areas and has not otherwise been contradicted.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/114 "2004-01-02T14:48:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Question \* > \*\*lol… i REALLY need some sleep… \*\* Yay, sleep. That’s where you’re a Viking. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/115 "2004-01-02T15:28:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*Yay, sleep. That’s where you’re a Viking. \*\* I _really_ wish that I had said that… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/116 "2004-01-02T17:29:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Question \* > \*\* > the proof that the IPU exists is right in front of you… reality as we know it is our perception of the collapsing wavefunction… before our observation there is nothing but totality in a quantum state and in such a state anything is possible, including invisible pink unicorns… \*\* Alas that we do not live in the unobserved universe. So, as far as we’re able to determine, IPUs don’t exist. Many things may well exist in a universe that we don’t observe. However, the value to us of such an existence seems very limited. In some unobserved universe, I’m sure that you’re entirely right. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/117 "2004-01-02T17:52:50Z")
Didn’t Donald Rumsfeld speak about the “unobserved unobservables?” ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/118 "2004-01-02T20:33:17Z")
I would swear I wasnt on any drugs before I started reading this thread, now im not so sure. So the IPU to my right, or left, does not exist? Then why the hell do I keep giving him cookies?? **Question** you make no sense, but what you lose in quality you do make up in quantitiy. I have a question for you tho, if we are all of one mind can the individual “mind” influence the hive mind as a whole? Really, I want to know your thoughts on this. ---
**Author:** ![Starrman10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Starrman10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starrman10)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/119 "2004-01-02T21:03:29Z")
> [@](#): > > .Dr Morris Netherton reports one case of a blond, blue-eyed eleven year old boy who under hypnosis was taped for eleven minutes as he spoke in an ancient Chinese dialect. When the tape was taken to a professor at the Department of Oriental Studies at the University of California it turned out to be a recitation from a forbidden religion of Ancient China. For fun I looked for this one on the web. First, Dr Morris Netherton is a practicer of [Alternative Treatment Modalities](http://www.aaple.com/netherton/) . There is no reference on his own web page as to what he is a doctor of. In fact, if you read his bio and your B.S. detector doesn’t fly off the chart you need to check in somewhere. As this would be an amazing case, I find it odd that it isn’t even mentioned in his case studies. I was hoping to find the proffessor who verified this, but I can’t even find a ‘Department of Oriental Studies’ at any of the California Universities’ web-sites. If this truly happened, why is it not a well-documented and easy to find case for all to see? Whye didn’t the professor record the child so he could have a colleague verify it? The problem I have with Zammit and his ilk is that he blindly puts crap like this up as evidence, without even a rudimentary check of its validity. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716/120 "2004-01-02T21:41:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by obfusciatrist \* > **No, they wouldn’t, but they’d still have a leg up on IPUs. Because in the case of neutrinos we have a large theory that seems to be testing out in every testable way that also indicates that neutrinos _should_ exist, even if we can’t reliably detect them.** Okay, but what if the IPU was part of a theory that explained the nature of the universe, the purpose of life, etc., and aside from that, people had firsthand experience of them? > [@](#): > > \*\*It is the difference between saying “I think IPUs exist because that would be cool” and “I think IPUs exist because they would be a consequence of theory X, a theory that _has been tested_ in these other areas and has not otherwise been contradicted.” \*\* Right, although it seems to me that a statement such as “I want to believe in IPUs but I need proof” is a good one to make - healthy skepticism. ([humble opinion]I’ve heard people say that about reincarnation.[/humble opinion]) But say after weighing the evidence for IPUs and the arguments against IPUs, as well as a person’s own experiences, that person developed a belief system using IPUs to explain who we are and why we’re here. It’d be a theory but if it’s not testable then it would not fall within the realm of science. Is it possible to scientifically test the theory of reincarnation? What kind of empirical evidence would be required to satisfy the skeptics, and how might such evidence be obtained? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reincarnation/221716.md?page=7)