# Relationship Title Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015 "2012-12-24T15:08:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tomcar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tomcar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomcar)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/1 "2012-12-24T15:08:45Z")
I have a son. My cousin (my father’s, brother’s son) has a son. What is my son and his son’s relationship title? ---
**Author:** ![J-P\_L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/j-p_l/32/3156_2.png) [@J-P\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J-P_L)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/2 "2012-12-24T15:12:32Z")
they are cousins, once removed. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/3 "2012-12-24T15:13:33Z")
> [@tomcar](#): > > I have a son. My cousin (my father’s, brother’s son) has a son. What is my son and his son’s relationship title? Your first cousin is your son’s first cousin once removed. Your son and your cousin’s son are second cousins. ---
**Author:** ![StuffLikeThatThere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc8723/32.png) [@StuffLikeThatThere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StuffLikeThatThere)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/4 "2012-12-24T15:14:14Z")
They are second cousins. Your relationship to your cousin’s son is first cousin once removed. The once indicates one generation. If your son and your cousin’s son have children those children will be third cousins. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/5 "2012-12-24T15:21:42Z")
second cousins his son is your first cousin once removed. Here’s how it works and why JPL is wrong. Think of your family tree with each generation as a level. If cousins are on he same level, look back to find your first common ancestor. Grandparents = first cousins, Great-Grandparents = second cousins, Great-Great-Grandparents = third cousin, etc. If they are not on the same level, look back starting at the level of the oldest generation. Then each level of difference is one level removed. For example, start with your second cousin i.e. common great-grandparents. Your second cousin’s child is your second cousin once removed. Your second cousin’s grandchild is your second cousin twice removed. Your second cousin’s great-grandchild is your second cousin thrice removed. Your second cousin’s child and your child are third cousins. Your second cousin’s grandchild and your child are third cousins once removed. etc. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/6 "2012-12-24T15:25:29Z")
Second cousins. They are in the same generation as each other, but one generation away from being first cousins. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/7 "2012-12-24T15:53:26Z")
How does the “removed” work again? Specifically: My mom’s cousin. I understand her children are my second cousins. But my mom’s cousin herself, is she my second cousin once removed, or first cousin once removed? Or is it ambiguous and can go either way? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/8 "2012-12-24T16:11:49Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > … My mom’s cousin. I understand her children are my second cousins. But my mom’s cousin herself, is she my second cousin once removed, or first cousin once removed? First cousin once removed. No ambiguity. Unlike other asymmetric relations (you are your nephew’s uncle, your grandparent’s grandchild) you are your 1st cousin 1x removed’s … 1st cousin 1x removed. In other words your first cousin 1x removed can be one generation _earlier_ than you (your parent’s 1st cousin) or one generation _after_ you (your cousin’s child). Similarly “two times removed” will be off by two generations, in either direction. Most rigorous, if too pedantic, is to locate the common ancestor(s) and count generations. For example if your gt-gt-gt-gt grandparents are same as target’s gt grandparents, then you are 2nd cousins 3x removed. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/9 "2012-12-24T16:22:08Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > . . . Specifically: My mom’s cousin. I understand her children are my second cousins. But my mom’s cousin herself, is she my second cousin once removed, or first cousin once removed? Or is it ambiguous and can go either way? As noted, it’s not ambiguous at all following the ‘rules’ of cousinry. Having said that, it is (or at least, _was_) not unusual at all to hear older folks referring to a “first cousin once removed” as “second cousin.” So I wonder how they would have referred to true second cousins. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/10 "2012-12-24T16:50:15Z")
Well, the _n_[sup]th[/sup] cousin, _m_ times removed nomenclature is ambiguous, in the sense that the relationship is asymmetric, as **septimus** notes above, yet we use the same phrase to describe each one’s relation to the other. ETA: So, my “first cousin once removed” could be either my first cousin’s child, or could be my parent’s first cousin. I have a 0[sup]th[/sup] cousin who has mentioned several times that there exists another distinct system of nomenclature to describe cousin relationships, but he didn’t know what that method is. Does anyone here know of that? ---
**Author:** ![TheChileanBlob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thechileanblob/32/435_2.png) [@TheChileanBlob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheChileanBlob)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/11 "2012-12-24T17:27:45Z")
0th cousin?? 😕 Are y’all double first cousins or something? I think they are as close as siblings. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/12 "2012-12-24T17:38:27Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Well, the _n_[sup]th[/sup] cousin, _m_ times removed nomenclature is ambiguous, in the sense that the relationship is asymmetric, as **septimus** notes above, yet we use the same phrase to describe each one’s relation to the other. Actually, in this system, the definitions for cousins are symmetric - you are your first cousin once removed’s first cousin once removed, just as you are the sibling of your sibling. An asymmetric definition is used for uncle and niece. > [@](#): > > ETA: So, my “first cousin once removed” could be either my first cousin’s child, or could be my parent’s first cousin. > > I have a 0[sup]th[/sup] cousin who has mentioned several times that there exists another distinct system of nomenclature to describe cousin relationships, but he didn’t know what that method is. Does anyone here know of that? [Wikipedia -asymmetric definitions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin) ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/13 "2012-12-24T17:41:31Z")
It’s no more ambiguous than calling someone your first cousin, regardless of whether they’re your mother’s brother’s daughter, or your father’s sister’s son, or you mother’s sister’s daughter, or your father’s brother’s son, etc., etc., etc. You can call eight people your first cousin, yet each is related to you differently. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/14 "2012-12-24T17:47:12Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > I have a 0[sup]th[/sup] cousin To clarify this, I think **Senegoid** means he and his informant share two (minus 1st) half-cousins 1x removed. 🆒 > [@Senegoid](#): > > who has mentioned several times that there exists another distinct system of nomenclature to describe cousin relationships, but he didn’t know what that method is. Does anyone here know of that? The [Catholic church uses a terminology](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm) in deciding whether a couple is too consanguinous for marriage. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/15 "2012-12-24T17:53:08Z")
> [@tomcar](#): > > I have a son. My cousin (my father’s, brother’s son) has a son. What is my son and his son’s relationship title? They are second cousins. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/16 "2012-12-24T17:55:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … > The [Catholic church uses a terminology](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm) in deciding whether a couple is too consanguinous for marriage. However, Catholic rules on consanguinity are irrelevant because the OP specified that both children are sons and the Catholic Church does not recognize gay marriage at all, let alone gay cousin marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/17 "2012-12-24T17:58:06Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > How does the “removed” work again? > > Specifically: My mom’s cousin. I understand her children are my second cousins. But my mom’s cousin herself, is she my second cousin once removed, or first cousin once removed? Or is it ambiguous and can go either way? Read my post above. Removed refers to how many generations there are between the two. So for example, the grandchild of your third cousin and you are third cousins twice removed. [QUOTE=septimus] In other words your first cousin 1x removed can be one generation earlier than you (your parent’s 1st cousin) or one generation after you (your cousin’s child). Similarly “two times removed” will be off by two generations, in either direction. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Senegoid] Well, the nth cousin, m times removed nomenclature is ambiguous, in the sense that the relationship is asymmetric, as septimus notes above, yet we use the same phrase to describe each one’s relation to the other. [/QUOTE] You are both incorrect as the “cousin” relationship refers to the earlier generation. Let’s take as an example second cousins. You claim that you would be second cousins once removed from both ther child and parent. But that’s not true, you are a first cousin once removed from the parent. Why? Because your parent and their parent are first cousins. You are one generation YOUNGER removed from that relationship and so you and your second cousin’s parent are first cousins once removed. The asymmetry comes from the fact that the relationship is always described from the perspective of the older generation and never the younger. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/18 "2012-12-24T17:58:31Z")
> [@TheChileanBlob](#): > > 0th cousin??.. I have multiple personality disorder and so do I. Aren’t there theories that due to pedigree collapse, on average everyone is at least 50th (or some other number) cousin to everyone else? ---
**Author:** ![FeAudrey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FeAudrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FeAudrey)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/19 "2012-12-24T20:23:04Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The [Catholic church uses a terminology](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04264a.htm) in deciding whether a couple is too consanguinous for marriage. Slight hijack: The linked-to version of the _Catholic Encyclopedia_ is from _ **1913** _. Do not rely on the “New Advent” site if you need information on the current state of the canon law (or anything else Church-ly). Why 1913? It is out of copyright, so post-able: > **[CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Byte by Byte...](https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/00002a.htm)** > > An article from the National Catholic Register ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015/20 "2012-12-24T22:06:13Z")
> [@TheChileanBlob](#): > > 0th cousin?? 😕 That’d be siblings. -1st cousin is just yourself. -2nd cousin are a couple with children. -3rd are grandparents, etc. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationship-title-question/645015.md?page=2)