# Relationships that start bad and turn good?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016>\
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion\
**Created:** [December 14, 2012, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016 "2012-12-14T12:12:44Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/21 "2012-12-15T08:08:26Z")

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I think it is pretty rare that people can drastically change a relationship that has started out bad. I think your attraction to this guy is clouding your judgment. [Your skepticism about this kind of thing back in 2009](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11215031&postcount=16) was spot-on. 🙂

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**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/22 "2012-12-15T08:54:20Z")

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> [@lavenderviolet](#):
>
> I think it is pretty rare that people can drastically change a relationship that has started out bad. I think your attraction to this guy is clouding your judgment. [Your skepticism about this kind of thing back in 2009](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11215031&postcount=16) was spot-on. 🙂

Oh I know. But maybe people can change enough. It has, again, been years. If I knew I didn’t tend to sabotage things myself, of course it would be a lot easier to accept that it’s impossible for anyone to have a good relationship with him.

No doubt my attraction to him is clouding my judgment to an extent (isn’t that the case for all relationships that are based on genuine attraction?). But it’s not just superficial attraction. And I am the last person in the world to believe in “soulmates” or “meant to be” or anything like that, and I still don’t with him. But I’ve been in my share of dysfunctional relationships and never felt this way about anyone else. I think we feel this way about each other despite all the bullshit, not BECAUSE of it. At least in large part. But I could be wrong. Or I could be right but it’s still impossible to overcome. Or it could be possible. Hence my question.

He does a lot of charity work, loves kids and gives so much to the team he coaches, loves the hell out of his dogs, can’t see a stranger in need of help without stepping up. He DOES have a good heart. He’s just fucked up. We should have never talked in the first place because we’re too different and maybe someone with a background more like his could understand better, but it’s too late now.

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**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/23 "2012-12-15T10:40:56Z")

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So your best bet is to play this out. You’re already going in. Have sex, have fights, have make-up sex.  
Don’t buy a house together yet, don’t move house, and don’t get pregnant. See in a year from now what you both want.

There. That wasn’t so hard, was it? 🙂

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**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/24 "2012-12-15T18:14:16Z")

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> [@Blackberry](#):
>
> He DOES have a good heart. He’s just fucked up. We should have never talked in the first place because we’re too different and maybe someone with a background more like his could understand better, but it’s too late now.

If he’s fucked up, you aren’t going to change that. He needs to change and get healthy or not, but on his own terms at at his own request. And your description doesn’t really make it sound like he thinks he’s fucked up. It sounds like he thinks you are. You both may be right, of course.

And it’s too late now? No it isn’t. Even if you had been married for fifty years and have three days to live, it’s still not too late.

You can both be great people and can love each other and still not be in the right place to make it work. There’s no shame in that. And, to be a bit cold about it, if you can love him this much, you can love someone else this much. And if he can love you this much, someone else can love you this much. As you say, “soul mates” is so much bullshit.

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**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/25 "2012-12-15T21:19:42Z")

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> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> If he’s fucked up, you aren’t going to change that. He needs to change and get healthy or not, but on his own terms at at his own request.

He’s working on it and it is on his own accord. But that’s been the case for a lot of years, so I don’t know.

> [@](#):
>
> And your description doesn’t really make it sound like he thinks he’s fucked up. It sounds like he thinks you are. You both may be right, of course.

We both think we both are, I guess. But I think mean is worse than “bratty” and I think he thinks they’re about the same.

> [@](#):
>
> And it’s too late now? No it isn’t. Even if you had been married for fifty years and have three days to live, it’s still not too late.

Well, I mean it’s too late for us to not have the strong feelings we have for each other. I think this would be a huge struggle for anyone in my position, but it should have never happened in the first place. And if I met him now, it wouldn’t. I want to go back in time and say some very harsh words to my 21-year-old self.

> [@](#):
>
> You can both be great people and can love each other and still not be in the right place to make it work. There’s no shame in that. And, to be a bit cold about it, if you can love him this much, you can love someone else this much. And if he can love you this much, someone else can love you this much. As you say, “soul mates” is so much bullshit.

Intellectually, of course I know you’re right. But I just feel like it’s hopeless. I can cut all contact for years, and it’s still not over. I feel like it will never be over no matter what I do, so I hope we can find a way to get along.

And I know how that sounds. And I know our relationship is not actually the specialest of all snowflakes. But there aren’t many people in the world as convincing as he is, I really believe that. And a million women want him, but not women like me, who actually challenge him. Because the rest of them know better.

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**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/26 "2012-12-15T22:14:05Z")

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> [@Blackberry](#):
>
> Intellectually, of course I know you’re right. But I just feel like it’s hopeless. I can cut all contact for years, and it’s still not over. I feel like it will never be over no matter what I do, so I hope we can find a way to get along.
> 
> And I know how that sounds. And I know our relationship is not actually the specialest of all snowflakes. But there aren’t many people in the world as convincing as he is, I really believe that. And a million women want him, but not women like me, who actually challenge him. Because the rest of them know better.

Well, you already know how it sounds, so there’s not much I can say except that… you know how it sounds.

Good luck with everything.

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**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\
**Post date:** [December 15, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/27 "2012-12-15T23:44:00Z")

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> [@jsgoddess](#):
>
> Well, you already know how it sounds, so there’s not much I can say except that… you know how it sounds.
> 
> Good luck with everything.

I know, I used to be all resolved to have nothing to do with him. Now I’m just kind of resigned. So I hope it has a chance of working out. I’m trying to be all reasonable no matter what he does, and he can either respond to that by being reasonable too, or by losing interest and leaving me alone. Win/win.

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**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\
**Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/28 "2012-12-16T00:29:24Z")

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> [@Blackberry](#):
>
> OMG yes, it’s so obvious that we don’t get along that nobody could doubt that. He knows he plays a role in it but he thinks my role in it is bigger than I think it is, because I’m “bratty” and act like a Seattle white girl, etc. **And those are triggers for him to viciously scream at me. He admits he shouldn’t do that, but says it would be easier for him not to if I didn’t act so bratty** , blah blah blah.

(Emphasis mine.)

My advice is to run, not walk, away from this relationship. What are you waiting for, the day he says he wouldn’t hit you if you didn’t make him so angry?

> [@Blackberry](#):
>
> I know, I used to be all resolved to have nothing to do with him. Now I’m just kind of resigned. So I hope it has a chance of working out. I’m trying to be all reasonable no matter what he does, and he can either respond to that by being reasonable too, or by losing interest and leaving me alone. Win/win.

There is nothing reasonable about resigning yourself to a relationship with someone who treats you badly, and if you continue putting up with this then I think it’s likely that things will become much, much worse for you.

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**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\
**Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/29 "2012-12-16T01:02:02Z")

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My first wife. I hadn’t even met her yet, but was talking to her on the phone because a friend said “here, talk to this girl while I go to the head”. So we’re talking, and we got into some sort of disagreement and I hung up on her. The guy came back and asked WTF and I said man, she’s a bitch. We were married for 21 years.

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**Author:** ![Sahirrnee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sahirrnee/32/13937_2.png) [@Sahirrnee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sahirrnee)\
**Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/30 "2012-12-16T05:22:07Z")

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Yes.  
I don’t know how or why I ever stayed with him but it is turning around and getting better. We have a ways to go, but he is willing to put the effort into making it better. He is trying.  
We still have one huge issue to overcome.  
I had to change my mindset to stop focusing on what was wrong and start focusing on his efforts to work things out. Once I stopped expecting the worst from him I stopped getting it.

If you and this guy can’t quit each other then you need to figure out how to get along, otherwise you’ll be stuck in this limbo land forever.  
Set a deadline, somewhere between 3 and 13 months. Commit to the deadline and for that time period give it your all. If it doesn’t work then you know you gave it an honest try and you can walk away. If it works then you are on the way to what you want.

Oh, and tell him if he doesn’t like the way white women act then he needs to stop dating them. If he loves you so much that he wants to make it work then why does he want to change you? Then if you change he’ll bitch that you’re not the woman he fell in love with.

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**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\
**Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/31 "2012-12-16T05:53:29Z")

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When the real basis of the relationship is a deep inner compatibility between the two, but at the outset one of them is going through a weird place in her life and temporarily is obscured from this shared harmony, then the relationship becomes very difficult—but after getting over that, she can then open up to the full goodness of the relationship, so that it will appear to have gone from bad to good.

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**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\
**Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/32 "2012-12-16T05:59:59Z")

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> [@Lamia](#):
>
> My advice is to run, not walk, away from this relationship. What are you waiting for, the day he says he wouldn’t hit you if you didn’t make him so angry?

Yeah, I have to say that this really doesn’t sound good to me. You kind of sound like a domestic abuse victim waiting to happen, honestly, since the guy already isn’t treating you that well but you don’t feel like you have control over leaving.

Some relationships are easier to end than others, but you can walk away from anyone.  
There is one guy from my past that if I were to spend time with him again I might possibly have feelings for again - but that’s not healthy at this point, so I steer clear of that guy. Sometimes that’s what you have to do.

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**Author:** ![sandra\_nz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@sandra\_nz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sandra_nz)\
**Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/33 "2012-12-16T07:26:33Z")

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It sounds to me like this relationship would be fine if you would just stop being all the things he doesn’t like about you, and start liking him for the way he is.

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**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\
**Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/34 "2012-12-16T09:55:37Z")

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> [@Lamia](#):
>
> My advice is to run, not walk, away from this relationship. What are you waiting for, the day he says he wouldn’t hit you if you didn’t make him so angry?

If he was going to get violent he would have done it by now. He’s made threats a few times over the years but he’s never done anything. I’m not disputing that I should run away though.

> [@sahirrnee](#):
>
> Yes.  
> I don’t know how or why I ever stayed with him but it is turning around and getting better. We have a ways to go, but he is willing to put the effort into making it better. He is trying.  
> We still have one huge issue to overcome.  
> I had to change my mindset to stop focusing on what was wrong and start focusing on his efforts to work things out. Once I stopped expecting the worst from him I stopped getting it.

Yeah, I was just telling him that for there to be any chance at all, we’d both have to let go of the past at the exact same time. That’s really hard to do though because it makes you so vulnerable. How long was your relationship bad and how bad was it?

> [@](#):
>
> Oh, and tell him if he doesn’t like the way white women act then he needs to stop dating them.

I do tell him that. Of course he counters that I can’t date black men and then expect them to act like Danny Tanner.

> [@lavenderviolet](#):
>
> Some relationships are easier to end than others, but you can walk away from anyone.  
> There is one guy from my past that if I were to spend time with him again I might possibly have feelings for again - but that’s not healthy at this point, so I steer clear of that guy. Sometimes that’s what you have to do.

I’ve tried that though! I moved to a new apartment in large part to get away from him (also, that apartment sucked). Completely ignored him for years. Dated other people. Got counseling. It just doesn’t work. After a while I start to think it did, and then BAM, right back where I started.

I’m totally joking when I say I’m going to kill this dude because it’s the only way…but I’m only joking about the part where I’d actually do it. Not about it being the only way.

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**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\
**Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/35 "2012-12-16T15:37:01Z")

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> [@Blackberry](#):
>
> If he was going to get violent he would have done it by now.

That’s not true. There’s a first time for everything, and someone who behaves in the way you describe seems pretty likely to turn violent at some point. Especially since…

> [@](#):
>
> He’s made threats a few times over the years but he’s never done anything.

So you’re just going to wait around for him to make good on these threats? Get out get out get out.

> [@](#):
>
> I’m not disputing that I should run away though.

Then stop making excuses and do it. It may be difficult, but it’s ultimately going to be a lot less difficult than staying with a man who abuses you. And even if he’s not violent (yet), viciously screaming at you and threatening you is already abusive.

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**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\
**Post date:** [December 16, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/36 "2012-12-16T20:05:18Z")

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> [@Blackberry](#):
>
> OMG yes, it’s so obvious that we don’t get along that nobody could doubt that. He knows he plays a role in it but he thinks my role in it is bigger than I think it is, because I’m “bratty” and act like a Seattle white girl, etc. And those are triggers for him to viciously scream at me. He admits he shouldn’t do that, but says it would be easier for him not to if I didn’t act so bratty, blah blah blah.
> 
> He has tons of ideas for how to make it better. We talk for hours and hours and hours about it. I don’t know, he gets me thinking maybe I do have more of a role in it than I realize. I do definitely have issues with relationships. He wants to have screaming matches and then just get over it and all is well, but I don’t scream back (which makes me “cold”) and I don’t just immediately get over him being mean. Some couples do fight like that just to blow off steam or something I guess, and then get over it, but that’s not me and never will be.
> 
> So he says I need to stop being bratty and act more like Claire Huxtable and he needs to stop being mean and act more like Cliff and then all will be well. He is dead serious about the Huxtable stuff too.

:eek: Honey, that is a long, long list of red flags. Starting with “he wouldn’t scream at me if I didn’t make him so mad” and going right through “he tries to convince me it’s my fault, maybe he’s right” and ending with “He thinks it’s my problem I get upset when he screams at me”.

I advise running like hell. You might feel that you two are fated to always be involved with each other, but consider whether you really believe in fate!  
Does this guy make you a better person and bring joy to your life? IMHO a lot of hemming and hawing is its own answer. If you have to make excuses for it, it probably isn’t right.

Go find someone who doesn’t scream at you. I promise they exist. 🙂

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**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/37 "2012-12-17T02:28:11Z")

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I agree with all of the above. My life was never so good until I got away from a relationship of hitting and screaming to a relationship where there is no violence and no raised voices. Please don’t settle for less.

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**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/38 "2012-12-17T04:06:38Z")

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Jeeps.

I had a Wagoneer that constantly overheated. Took a while, but I got it to where I could actually drive it and make it home most of the time.

I’ve got a Commando that had a myriad of problems in almost every system. We have come to terms and I can reasonable expect to get home when I take off in it. But I always wear comfortable shoes…

Didn’t much care for the wife’s weiner dog at first, but I think he is pretty damn cool now. Except for the massive dump he dropped in my shop last night…

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**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2012, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/39 "2012-12-17T12:12:25Z")

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> [@Lamia](#):
>
> That’s not true. There’s a first time for everything, and someone who behaves in the way you describe seems pretty likely to turn violent at some point.

I totally understand why you would say that, but I mean it’s been just under a decade. 1/3 of my life. And he was much more of a hothead when he was younger. And I’ve cut contact with him for 1+ years multiple times (that’s the most likely time for a man to get violent). I don’t think I have anything to be scared of physically. He has limits. Have I mentioned that he’s never one time acted anything short of nice in the presence of my daughter? He’s known her almost her entire life.

> [@](#):
>
> Then stop making excuses and do it. It may be difficult, but it’s ultimately going to be a lot less difficult than staying with a man who abuses you. And even if he’s not violent (yet), viciously screaming at you and threatening you is already abusive.

Can’t dispute that 😕 That’s exactly what I would say to my little sister in this situation.

> [@FlyByNight512](#):
>
> :eek: Honey, that is a long, long list of red flags. Starting with “he wouldn’t scream at me if I didn’t make him so mad” and going right through “he tries to convince me it’s my fault, maybe he’s right” and ending with “He thinks it’s my problem I get upset when he screams at me”.
> 
> I advise running like hell. You might feel that you two are fated to always be involved with each other, but consider whether you really believe in fate!  
> Does this guy make you a better person and bring joy to your life? IMHO a lot of hemming and hawing is its own answer. If you have to make excuses for it, it probably isn’t right.
> 
> Go find someone who doesn’t scream at you. I promise they exist. 🙂

I know they do! But I’m horrible at relationships, and for some reason I don’t think will ever be known by anyone, I’m not attracted to the right type of men. It’s not troubled man or functional man; it’s troubled man or nothing. Don’t think I haven’t worked on it. Some things can’t be fixed. That’s why I’ve intentionally stayed away from serious relationships for the last few years. But some things you did at 21 never stop haunting you. I don’t think he used to have good intentions but I think we both do now. So maybe there’s a small chance of it working out. Or maybe not.

Thanks for the support though 🙂 One day it’ll take!

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**Author:** ![Sahirrnee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sahirrnee/32/13937_2.png) [@Sahirrnee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sahirrnee)\
**Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relationships-that-start-bad-and-turn-good/644016/40 "2012-12-19T17:25:45Z")

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> [@Blackberry](#):
>
> Yeah, I was just telling him that for there to be any chance at all, we’d both have to let go of the past at the exact same time. That’s really hard to do though because it makes you so vulnerable. How long was your relationship bad and how bad was it?  
> I do tell him that. Of course he counters that I can’t date black men and then expect them to act like Danny Tanner.

Who would want to date a Danny Tanner? :eek: I’d probably shoot myself.

It’s been almost 6 years and it was pretty bad at times.  
The only days we weren’t arguing were the days we weren’t talking.

We’d fight, break up, get back together and fight some more.

He’s a ‘my way or the highway’ kind of guy and he’s used to getting his way all the time. :rolleyes:  
He had a real hard time understanding that telling him what I expect in a relationship is not the same thing as telling him what to do.

We’re dealing with racial difference, age difference and we live over an hour away from each other. It’s hard.  
I was ready to walk Thanksgiving, but he is trying. As long as he is willing to work on it I’ll work with him.  
He’s losing the ‘my way or the highway’ attitude. I’m working on letting go and trusting him to fix our relationship.

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