# Relatively few black people can swim - What?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 22, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487 "2004-04-22T19:20:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![hammerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hammerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hammerbach)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/41 "2004-04-23T05:19:12Z")
> [@Vic Ferrari](#): > > Of the hundred or so guys I went through boot camp with there were a handful that couldn’t swim, all were black. I didn’t think much of it at the time, but I later learned that others had the same experience, so there must be _something_ to it. Me too… MCRD San Diego, 1986 (“Sir, Get on line with surfboards, aye aye, Sir!”) I took note that those guys were all from big cities; I am from a little beach town in San Diego county where I lived in the surf and couldn’t imagine anyone unable to swim. I vote “cultural differences”. ---
**Author:** ![MisterThyristor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecccb3/32.png) [@MisterThyristor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MisterThyristor)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/42 "2004-04-23T05:57:31Z")
I definitely think it is cultural rather than biological. The fat/total-body-weight ratio, as another poster mentioned, is the largest factor in human buoyancy. My father was one who had a low ratio, and could not float at all, not even a deadman’s float (lungs inflated, face down). He would sink straight to the bottom. He could (and did) learn to swim, however, because he thought it was an important enough skill to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/43 "2004-04-23T07:33:41Z")
I have a sneaking suspicion that this idea may come across as the most racist thing said thus far, in this thread. I hope not, because it came from a close friend of mine, who is black and also afraid of water. The idea is not that it’s an aversion to _swimming_, per se, but moreso to large bodies of water. He suggested it was a deep rooted fear passed from generation to generation, originating on slave ships from Africa. For example, there are three generations of women in my family who are all irrationally afraid of snakes. If you can accept this premise, it’s easy to make the leap from large bodies of water to any pool over your head in depth. This would also explain why the ratios of black/white::non-swimmer/swimmer are different in other parts of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/44 "2004-04-23T11:04:55Z")
I have a feeling I might be the liberal in question here, but got missed out of the running because twelvericepaddies cross-posted with someone else. I basically came in and said “I know nothing about this but I assume it is because of the following kinds of factors which make this a cultural thing.” While I don’t feel it deserved quite the venom it received, it wasn’t the most helpful contribution to the thread. It’s not like I have the credentials to go round assuming stuff about stuff. I should have done better in GQ, really, or keep my assumptions quiet… ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/45 "2004-04-23T11:47:03Z")
Well, I am a competative swimmer so I can come in with some ideas. There are very few black swimmers, at least at the meets that I have been to. I would say you would be lucky to see one at a meet, even some of the bigger events I’ve only seen a couple. I will have to report more when I swim next month in Italy where there will be thousands of people from all over the world. Body fat has little to nothing to do with swimming. Most of the best swimmers in the world have well under 10% body fat, some even down to 3%. Your possition in the water has more to do with floating then body fat. I used to be down around 7%, now I’m between 11-13%, I still float no problems. Swimming is a skill just like anything else. But how many of you remember learing how to swim? I know I don’t. The strokes that most kids try and swim are hard and you can’t do them for very long, it takes a lot to learn to put your face in the water, and for little kids it scares them for the most part. Plus many places just do not have pools, they are very expensive to put in and run. Yes places do have them, but they are expensive to goto as well. I know I never went to the pool when I was a kid very often, but my school had one that was free, but my county was the exception to the rule. I would say that for the most part blacks do not swim is because they don’t do it as kids. Just like most things it’s learned young and if you just don’t do it then you’ll most likely not choose to do it at a later age. I don’t think that body fat has anything to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/46 "2004-04-23T16:34:09Z")
> [@twelvericepaddies](#): > > Pay attention to this in the future and you will find it to be absolutely true - the curse of modern Liberals is to make excuses for everything they do not like. My ex never could stop doing what the previous poster did - which is to say 'I don’t know anything about this, and I am making an assumption, but it must be because…" There is NOTHING, NO THING that a whiney Liberal cannot make an excuse for - and that excuse (always a fictive guess) also is supposed to terminate any further consideration of the matter. p.s. to Whiney Liberals - we all know your abilities to generate instant excuses for everything, so why bother? Second, has reality ever interfered with your lip-flapping excuses? This thread is not about liberals and your political potshots are not appreciated. In the future you will refrain from posting your political opinions in this forum if you wish to retain your posting privileges. bibliophage moderator GQ ---
**Author:** ![Rex\_Fenestrarum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rex_fenestrarum/32/7265_2.png) [@Rex\_Fenestrarum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rex_Fenestrarum)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/47 "2004-04-23T17:39:01Z")
Yet another anecdote: My father owned a wholesale grocery business in downtown Atlanta for years. I worked there for 8 years and was one of the only white folks working on the sales floor. Of the 20 or so black employees, only one knew how to swim. Or claimed to. I also got the “you know black folks can’t swim” line from one of the employees and asked around. Needless to say, I was surprised! ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/48 "2004-04-23T17:54:40Z")
> [@Edward The Head](#): > > Swimming is a skill just like anything else. But how many of you remember learing how to swim? I know I don’t. The strokes that most kids try and swim are hard and you can’t do them for very long, it takes a lot to learn to put your face in the water, and for little kids it scares them for the most part. For the cops to need to swim, it beggars belief to think that they mean “stay alive in the water and splash about” instead of “swim skillfully & efficiently, and do life-guard style life saving.” The latter is definately a skill that takes quite a bit of time to learn. If you go from zero to life guard, how long would that take? Could it be done in sufficient time to pass the police academy? My H.S. required swimming and it was a ¼ year course that even after all that time, some people were still in danger of failing. I had a friend who taught swimming to black kids in Flint, MI, and he never made any mention whatsoever of inabiltiy or aversion, physical or cultural. I once even saw a documentary defending the aquatic-ape thesis that showed African kids swimming in a pond and coming up with fish in their mouths. Learning to swim proficiently would require pool time and lessons, or easy access to a pool, lake, etc, things which are most likely in short supply in low-income, urban areas—making demographic assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/49 "2004-04-23T19:41:47Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Great Apes like Gorillas and Chimpanzees cannot swim because of their bone density. Do you have a cite for this? My understanding was that the great apes (us included) don’t instinctively know how to swim b/c of our body position. Pretty much every quadruped on the planet can “dog paddle”, because the motion is so similar to their normal locomotion, the buoyant part of their body is aligned like a big blimp/float, and their head is elevated above their trunk, so they can keep breathing. We apes, upon trying to assume the same body position, instead wind up in the deadman’s float. Plus, we don’t instinctively use our arms and legs the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/50 "2004-04-23T20:29:49Z")
QUOTE=toadspittle]Do you have a cite for this? My understanding was that the great apes (us included) don’t instinctively know how to swim b/c of our body position. Pretty much every quadruped on the planet can “dog paddle”, because the motion is so similar to their normal locomotion, the buoyant part of their body is aligned like a big blimp/float, and their head is elevated above their trunk, so they can keep breathing. We apes, upon trying to assume the same body position, instead wind up in the deadman’s float. Plus, we don’t instinctively use our arms and legs the same way. [/QUOTE] I’ve heard and read this many times, but for a quick cite I found this: [“…Also the bones of primates are larger and denser than those of humans (Great apes can’t swim as a result. They sink.). As a result of living with a heavier skeleton their muscles are more highly developed. They work out every day, just moving around…”](http://www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/bio/animals/mammals/primates/b01051d.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/51 "2004-04-23T20:32:25Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? My understanding was that the great apes (us included) don’t instinctively know how to swim b/c of our body position. Pretty much every quadruped on the planet can “dog paddle”, because the motion is so similar to their normal locomotion, the buoyant part of their body is aligned like a big blimp/float, and their head is elevated above their trunk, so they can keep breathing. We apes, upon trying to assume the same body position, instead wind up in the deadman’s float. Plus, we don’t instinctively use our arms and legs the same way. I’ve heard and read this many times, but for a quick cite I found this: […Also the bones of primates are larger and denser than those of humans (Great apes can’t swim as a result. They sink.). As a result of living with a heavier skeleton their muscles are more highly developed. They work out every day, just moving around…"](http://www.sciencenet.org.uk/database/bio/animals/mammals/primates/b01051d.html) ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/52 "2004-04-23T21:40:12Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > True enough, who’d have thought ten years ago that a non-white golfer would be any good… Jim Thorpe? Charlie Sifford? Lee Elder? Calvin Peete? Isao Aoki? ---
**Author:** ![Titan2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Titan2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Titan2)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/53 "2004-04-23T22:40:12Z")
When I was a kid (40s/50s) my closest city pool was my first glimpse of multiracial affairs.It lay roughly between a majority black street (s) and white street(s) I saw many black kids swimming,tho forget if they were mainly in the kid’s pool or the regular one.One of the regular lifeguards was a black man named George,a real likeable guy to us kids. I remember asking him if he was related to Joe Louis,being cast in roughly the same build,and him kind of laughing about it,not being PC annoyed at the whitey’s they all look alike theme.He was a good man. Definitely has to be what you were exposed to as a kid,IMO.This was long before the cultural/recreational opportunties of today.Now they’ve got summer Basketball leagues,a sport more than a few of the young black kids favor. ---
**Author:** ![Cholla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8dc957/32.png) [@Cholla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cholla)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/54 "2004-04-23T22:49:16Z")
Hello. I’m new at this so apologies in advance for any mistakes. This Wikipedia [History of Swimming](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_swimming) link provides the following annecdote: > [@](#): > > One watershed event was a swimming competition in 1844 in London . Some Native Americans participated in this competition. While the British raced using breaststroke, the Native Americans swam a variant of the front crawl, which has been used by people in the Americas, _West Africa_ and some Pacific islands for generations, but was not known to the British. As the front crawl is a much faster style than the breaststroke, the Americans won against the British competition. The italics are mine. Though the author doesn’t offer any support for this claim, it gives some credence to the “cultural differences” argument. ---
**Author:** ![Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilvert_s_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/55 "2004-04-23T23:18:13Z")
> [@Cholla](#): > > Hello. I’m new at this so apologies in advance for any mistakes. Interesting point, and welcome to the SDMB, **Cholla**. ---
**Author:** ![olefin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d78d45/32.png) [@olefin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/olefin)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2004, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/56 "2004-04-23T23:39:22Z")
I don’t know the answer except maybe black people just don’t like to play in water? I don’t buy the business that black people don’t have access to swimming pools! Or the economic disadvantage stuff. I was born and raised where there was NO swimming pools. In fact there was only water enough to swim when it happen to rain (which was not very often in West TX.) They are called Buffalo Wallows, slight depressions in the flat land that fill with muddy rain water after a large fast rain. They soon dry up but for maybe a few weeks they may be deep enough to swim in. I learn to swim by the time I was 13 in a buffalo wallow. Talk about economic disadvantage… my first indoor toilet was in the USAF when I was 17. ---
**Author:** ![Starguard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Starguard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starguard)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/57 "2004-04-24T00:01:49Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Oh, BTW, that post is in direct reply to **Starguard** ’s insulting, inane, and uninformative comment. > > All I said was that there is obvious truth to the fact that less black people in the US swim than white. People have theories, but no one that I’ve seen has any proof to exactly why that is. But I specifically said I do NOT believe it has something to do with physiology or a genetic disposition to not have a natural ability to float. > > I am still in awe over your comment. . . Just Funnin with ya…Sorry if I offended you 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/58 "2004-04-24T00:20:19Z")
Ohhhh. If that’s the case, then sorry I over-reacted. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TitoBenito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2acd7d/32.png) [@TitoBenito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TitoBenito)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/59 "2004-04-24T07:00:13Z")
> [@olefin](#): > > I don’t know the answer except maybe black people just don’t like to play in water? > > I don’t buy the business that black people don’t have access to swimming pools! Or the economic disadvantage stuff. > > I was born and raised where there was NO swimming pools. In fact there was only water enough to swim when it happen to rain (which was not very often in West TX.) They are called Buffalo Wallows, slight depressions in the flat land that fill with muddy rain water after a large fast rain. They soon dry up but for maybe a few weeks they may be deep enough to swim in. I learn to swim by the time I was 13 in a buffalo wallow. Talk about economic disadvantage… my first indoor toilet was in the USAF when I was 17. Ever see a buffalo wallow in a city? If you did would you swim in it? ---
**Author:** ![olefin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d78d45/32.png) [@olefin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/olefin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487/60 "2004-04-24T13:33:23Z")
> [@TitoBenito](#): > > Ever see a buffalo wallow in a city? If you did would you swim in it? Sure, towns in West TX have them and they are just as dirty. But now every town has a pool. Also all blacks don’t live in the city. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relatively-few-black-people-can-swim-what/241487.md?page=2)