# Released Guantanamo Detainees Planned Fizzled Plane Explosion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903 "2009-12-29T13:44:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/21 "2009-12-29T15:36:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Will this news, if true, cause the Obama administration to revisit its approach to Gitmo detainees? I certainly hope not. The indefinite detention of individuals while denying them no effective process is a horrendous embarrassment and contrary to much of what I think makes the US what it is (or claims to be). Being supportive of freedom and human rights (instead of just claiming to be)necessarily exposes you to some risks and incurs some costs. I prefer those risks and costs to the alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/22 "2009-12-29T15:38:42Z")
Rumor, because the guilt of someone on the battlefield with a weapon is always perfect evidence of their crime, no mistakes are going to happen. Not true in other situations. However we do need to quit pretending truth serum and lie detectors do not exist, and use modern tools like that in criminal investigations. It would just be evidence, and more accurate than the often wrong witnesses that do testify. But on the battlefield you need no witnesses when you find the enemy with a gun that has been fired, that is the difference. You know with certainty what he was doing. ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/23 "2009-12-29T15:43:22Z")
Dinsdale I do agree, it is crazy to hold people forever, the trials and executions should be fast indeed. Just how do they claim this is OK with the constitution anyway? Where is a separate system for the military even authorized at all? But I also know if they are not our citizens we owe them nothing at all, our constitution is for our people and citizens, and does not apply overseas unless it is a USA territory. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/24 "2009-12-29T15:45:30Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Rumor, because the guilt of someone on the battlefield with a weapon is always perfect evidence of their crime, no mistakes are going to happen. Not true in other situations. Being on the battlefield with a gun generally isn’t considered a crime, much less an offense for which one can be summarily executed. And there are indeed questions about the guilt of some of the people we are discussing. > [@](#): > > However we do need to quit pretending truth serum and lie detectors do not exist, and use modern tools like that in criminal investigations. This is probably a separate debate but it sounds like you’re grossly misinformed about these items. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/25 "2009-12-29T15:46:35Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Rumor, because the guilt of someone on the battlefield with a weapon is always perfect evidence of their crime, no mistakes are going to happen. Not true in other situations. You concept of the battlefield is some rolling, tree lined meadow where Team A is on one side, Team B is on the other. Maybe I’m being unfair. By all means, please define this “battlefield” for me. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/26 "2009-12-29T15:53:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Will this news, if true, cause the Obama administration to revisit its approach to Gitmo detainees? Politically, I think it almost has to, but it’s still legally cringeworthy. I’m well to the right of most on this board, but I’ve never condoned the notion of indefinite confinement for people that have yet to be convicted of any crime. I still say try the GITMO detainees in open court, and let the chips fall where they may. Unfortunately, I don’t think Obama can do that. If the next attempted terrorist attack is successful and traced to someone released on Obama’s watch, he’ll get crucified for it. Not many are going to complain if he just keeps them locked up forever. ---
**Author:** ![Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silverstreak_Wonder)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/27 "2009-12-29T15:53:51Z")
Rumor, Any place US forces are being shot at, is a battlefield. Anyone caught with a gun, grenades, military equipment and so on in a battlefield would be a killer of American forces. Very simple to determine. If there were shepards and farmers and such no I would not harm them if they had no military equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/28 "2009-12-29T15:59:13Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > But I also know if they are not our citizens we owe them nothing at all, our constitution is for our people and citizens, and does not apply overseas unless it is a USA territory. Then you would also know that you’re dead wrong. On multiple levels the constitution is not exclusively for “our people” (which, btw, has some scary ethno-political connotation to it) or citizens and federal case law, statutory law, and probably treaty and executive order enlarges the application of certain constitutional principals to extra-territorial situations. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/29 "2009-12-29T16:01:06Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Rumor, Any place US forces are being shot at, is a battlefield. Anyone caught with a gun, grenades, military equipment and so on in a battlefield would be a killer of American forces. Very simple to determine. I assume you believe we can give Nidal Malik Hasan a 5-minute one-and-done trial then, right? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/30 "2009-12-29T16:01:22Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Rumor, Any place US forces are being shot at, is a battlefield. Anyone caught with a gun, grenades, military equipment and so on in a battlefield would be a killer of American forces. Very simple to determine. > > If there were shepards and farmers and such no I would not harm them if they had no military equipment. REally? So simple eh? Well it’s the shepherd’s or the farmer’s own bloody country, and one say bloody riddled with warlords and bandits. And where owning an AK and other “military equipment” (the sort you Americans tend to scream on about as your god given right to Own and Bear arms) is perfectly legal and ordinary (indeed bloody dangerous to go around unarmed…). And where - as in Afghanistan - hardly unknown, indeed documented in multiple cases where score settling can charmingly involve selling you to the said Americans for a bounty on “terrorists” or Taleban. Not too bloody clear at all actually. > [@Shodan](#): > > As a general rule of thumb, I wait until I actually say something before I attempt to back it up. For instance, if I say “a terrorist” and some unfortunate person changes it to “all”, more often than not I merely laugh at the transparent stupidity of such a post and move on. > No, the next great step would be to laugh derisively at the various attempts to distort the incident of the OP into something it is not. > > Regards, > Shodan Actually, it rather seems to be your practice to make sweeping assertions (such as the presumption of terrorist) and then hide behind ambiguities and snarky remarks. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/31 "2009-12-29T16:05:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > ABC News says that two of the four leaders said to have planned the al Qaeda attempt to blow up a jet plane over Detroit with a suicide bomber were former Gitmo detainees, released into a “rehabilitation program” run by the Saudis. > > Will this news, if true, cause the Obama administration to revisit its approach to Gitmo detainees? Possibly, but hopefully with an eye towards more complete investigations and determining who is and isn’t a threat. For as many times as I’ve heard the “X many Gitmo detainees are now fighting against the US again!” numbers thrown around, what it says to me is that the old system had critical flaws. I’m not naive enough to believe that everyone in Gitmo is a saint there has to be a better way of determining who is what than imprisoning them for years on end without charges before using whatever criteria they were using to release them. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/32 "2009-12-29T16:07:01Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > However we do need to quit pretending truth serum and lie detectors do not exist, and use modern tools like that in criminal investigations. It would just be evidence, and more accurate than the often wrong witnesses that do testify. I know nothing about “truth serums”, but have recently read 2 lengthy articles about recent attempts to come up with effective “lie detectors.” Both of them maintained that there is no scientific theory to explain how - or even whether - polygraphs work. There is considerable research towards developing reliable tests, such as use of fMRIs. But little useful practical result. One statement I found curious concerned a guy (I believe the model for the Lie to Me TV series) who offered training on detecting lies through personal observation. Government agencies consistently told him that they were not interested in training, but desired only solutions that involved technology they could buy. Don’t know if it is true, but is sure SOUNDS likely! 😛 (Another amusing factoid - the modern polygraph was invented by William Moulton, who also created Wonder Woman - who happened to have a truth-telling Magic Lasso!) 😉 One of the articles was by a Robin Marantz Henig, originally in the NY Times mag, and reprinted in The Best American Scientific Writing of 2007. (Just happen to be reading the book right now.) I think the other was in Discover mag ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/33 "2009-12-29T16:07:18Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Dinsdale I do agree, it is crazy to hold people forever, the trials and executions should be fast indeed. Just how do they claim this is OK with the constitution anyway? Where is a separate system for the military even authorized at all? But I also know if they are not our citizens we owe them nothing at all, our constitution is for our people and citizens, and does not apply overseas unless it is a USA territory. No, much of your constitution applies to anyone under US jurisdiction. I assure you that even though I am not a US citizen I cannot be, say, shot for speeding in Utah. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/34 "2009-12-29T16:08:05Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > No, much of your constitution applies to anyone under US jurisdiction. I assure you that even though I am not a US citizen I cannot be, say, shot for speeding in Utah. Don’t “tread” on me, buster! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/35 "2009-12-29T16:09:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you have a real cite for this? FAIR is not exactly the most impartial cite in the world, and denial is not refutation. > > Regards, > Shodan FAIR is quoting other sources, and you are in denial. > **[washington independent game](http://washingtonindependent.com/)** > > home made city upgrade game about boarding houses, telegraph offices, casinos, federal offices, printing presses, docks, land, carriage works, munitions, hotels. > [@](#): > > Seton Hall Law Professor Mark Denbeaux (who appeared last week on the Rachel Maddow show) found that those numbers were pure fiction. > > “Once again, they’ve failed to identify names, numbers, dates, times, places, or acts upon which their report relies,” Denbaux said in a statement accompanying his report released last week. > > ``` > “Every time they have been required to identify the parties, the DOD has been forced to retract their false IDs and their numbers. They have included people who have never even set foot in Guantánamo—much less were they released from there. They have counted people as ‘returning to the fight’ for their having written an Op-ed piece in the New York Times and for their having appeared in a documentary exhibited at the Cannes Film Festival. The DOD has revised and retracted their internally conflicting definitions, criteria, and their numbers so often that they have ceased to have any meaning—except as an effort to sway public opinion by painting a false portrait of the supposed dangers of these men.” > > ``` > > Meanwhile, the Defense Department has also said that “they do not track” former detainees. “Rather than making up numbers “willy-nilly” about post release conduct, America might be better served if our government actually kept track of them,” Denbaux said. After looking at the report, so far I have to agree with this conclusion: [http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/05/dod\_report\_claims\_5\_of\_freed\_gitmo\_detainees\_reeng.php](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/05/dod_report_claims_5_of_freed_gitmo_detainees_reeng.php) > [@](#): > > A table gives 29 names (including the 11 summarized cases) of “former GTMO detainees who have reengaged in terrorism.” The information provided is scant. A typical entry: “Name: Muhibullah. Nationality: Afghanistan. Repatriated: July 2005. Activity: Association With The Taliban. Status: Suspected.” > > A couple points here: As the Times noted at the bottom of its story, the Pentagon doesn’t even name 45 of the supposed “recidivists.” And almost no details are provided for many that are named. > > It’s also worth stressing the DOD itself distinguishes between “confirmed” and “suspected” case – a distinction that goes unmentioned in the Times front-pager that was pounced on by the cable channels and the right-wing blogs. **The oft-repeated “1 in 7” number is a combination of the confirmed and suspected cases.** ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/36 "2009-12-29T16:09:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The issue is as simple as it’s always been: is it just to lock up a hundred people because one of them might be guilty of a crime? In Iraq when a citizen claimed a neighbor was Al Queada, the citizen got a bonus and we went off with the guy. Then we interrogated him and kept him in jail for years. That treatment has a tendency to radicalize him, his friends and family. To be safe we should round them all up. But wait, now we have more people who are friends and relatives. Don’'t we have to take them out too? This is such a good way to get people to love America. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/37 "2009-12-29T16:13:51Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > … I’ve never condoned the notion of indefinite confinement for people that have yet to be convicted of any crime. I still say try the GITMO detainees in open court, and let the chips fall where they may. … This is one of those things that so clearly distinguishes me from folk who feel differently. And it seems neither of us can comprehend how the other could think as they do. I cannot understand what they are afraid of - what they believe is worth acting in a manner I consider to be contrary to many of what I consider to be the most fundamental American values. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/38 "2009-12-29T16:18:24Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I certainly hope not. The indefinite detention of individuals while denying them no effective process is a horrendous embarrassment and contrary to much of what I think makes the US what it is (or claims to be). Except that Obama has bought into the indefinite detention policy already. I don’t know that he will be as willing to use it as often as Bush did, but he still plans to use it. So I think you mean that you hope he does change his policies. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/39 "2009-12-29T16:21:08Z")
> [@Silverstreak\_Wonder](#): > > Rumor, Any place US forces are being shot at, is a battlefield. Anyone caught with a gun, grenades, military equipment and so on in a battlefield would be a killer of American forces. Very simple to determine. When are we going to round up all the gun owners in [Texas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting)? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/40 "2009-12-29T16:23:40Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > This is one of those things that so clearly distinguishes me from folk who feel differently. And it seems neither of us can comprehend how the other could think as they do. > > I cannot understand what they are afraid of - what they believe is worth acting in a manner I consider to be contrary to many of what I consider to be the most fundamental American values. I don’t understand why they think their fear would make a difference. Madmen who kill strangers with household implements are tried with people present and incarcerated alongside other prisoners, and someone like that is more immediately dangerous to the people around him than some shmuck who is accused of plotting to help gather supplies to make explosives or of driving a limousine. I understand that some people are really scared of terrorists, but so what? There’s nothing in any document outlining a prisoner’s rights that features the disclaimer “unless they make Republicans really really scared,” is there? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903.md?page=3)