# Released Guantanamo Detainees Planned Fizzled Plane Explosion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903 "2009-12-29T13:44:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/61 "2009-12-29T18:02:06Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > You Betcha! > Still, when a senator talks about health care reform as [“Obama’s Waterloo”](http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/president-obama/audio-of-jim-demint-saying-health-care-will-be-obamas-waterloo/), it’s reasonable to suspect that his obstruction of Obama’s TSA candidate may _also_ rise from mere partisan antipathy rather than any actual issue regarding the nominee’s ability to do the job. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/62 "2009-12-29T18:02:53Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > POWs are not criminals, they have not commited crimes (simiply by fighting, that is). Perhaps you can be the first ever to explain to us why this is a “war” (and on a _tactic_, terrorism, rather than a nation), not a police action against an organized crime syndicate. Hmm? > [@](#): > > The problem with many POWs in Gitmo is that there is no clear end to the war, there is no clear VE/VJ day, so it is an open-ended war and technically the detention can still be indefinite without violating the letter of the Geneva convention. How about the _spirit_ of the convention, then? Does that matter? How about the letter _or_ the spirit of our own damn Constitution and laws? Do they ever enter into the discussion for you? It’s very convenient to use the out you just described to avoid accepting responsibility for being better than the people you oppose. **Bricker/Shodan** -type potshots don’t cut it, either. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/63 "2009-12-29T18:06:41Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s very convenient to use the out you just described to avoid accepting responsibility for being better than the people you oppose. Um, he’s not avoiding accepting the responsibility - he’s suggesting that calling them POWs would still be morally/geneva convention-spiritually problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/64 "2009-12-29T18:13:23Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > All this time, I never realized that WWII had a pre-determined end date. Just can’t trust anything you learned in school anymore :rolleyes: That’s not his point. wars between state actors either a) end in a victory for one side b) end in a formal cease fire and everyone stops hostilities c) operate perpetually wars against an ideology only end once the war-waging party has decided that they’ve “won” with conventional war, there will be a time when POWs are repatriated, either by cessation of hostilities, or prisoner exchanges if there are truly perpetual wars. neither of those two things can occur in asymetric wars against abstract concepts ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/65 "2009-12-29T18:38:03Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > What will actually happen is that a former Gitmo detainee returning to terrorism will be a sobering reminder that you cannot cure violent radicals by locking them up… Surely, in the absence of any evidence that they were previously terrorists, then we can’t treat them as returning to terrorism. So in the absence of fair trials, a former Gitmo detainee committing a terrorist act will be a sobering reminder that imprisoning innocent people can turn them into terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/66 "2009-12-29T18:54:12Z")
In case there are people who haven’t got the word yet, the wars are over. And we won. We declared war on Afghanistan; we invaded the country, we overthrew the Taliban, and the country is now being run by a coalition that is our ally. Same thing in Iraq; invasion, overthrow, dismantling WMDs, executions, new government. The President went on TV and said the mission was accomplished. So it’s time to let the POWs go. Their war is over. But what about the terrorists, you ask? That’s simple. It turns out killing people and blowing things up is against the law. You arrest the terrorists (this should be easy because according to conservative sources, we’ve already done that). Then you have a trial and put them in prison like Ramzi Yousef. Or execute them like Timothy McVeigh. Or let them go if they don’t get convicted. But we have a legal system and it works, even against terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/67 "2009-12-29T18:57:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > . We declared war on Afghanistan Really? You’d think a thing like that would have made the news. I’m not aware of any formal declarations of war by the U.S. since WWII. Perhaps you’d be kind enough to provide a cite? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/68 "2009-12-29T19:04:47Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > I too wonder whether Bricker now favors Sen. Jim DeMint’s hold on Obama’s nominee to head TSA ? Is wartime really the time to play such petty political games, or does DeMint have the nation’s best interests in mind here? I don’t know enough details about it to form a really complete opinion, but my shoot-from-the-hip position is: no. Unless there is some outrageously egregious reason to oppose any given nominee, the President has the right to appoint his executive officers. Elections have consequences. I doubt I personally would have picked whoever Obama’s choice is, based solely on the differing points in the political spectrum that Obama and I occupy. But he’s the President, and that should mean he gets to pick his team to carry out his agenda. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/69 "2009-12-29T19:46:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Perhaps you can be the first ever to explain to us why this is a “war” (and on a _tactic_, terrorism, rather than a nation), not a police action against an organized crime syndicate. Hmm? I’ve mentioned it in other threads, but Bush, Obama, the United Nations, NATO, and the US Supreme Court all agree it’s an “armed conflict” (aka “war”) against al qaeda. Policy decisions will determine how you want to treat it (military response, police response, no response). So why is it a “war” against an organized crime syndicate? because people determined AQ’s actions rose to the level of an act of war and we responded with overwhelming military force = armed conflict = confers right of military necessity = indefinite detentions of your enemy, killing as a measure of first resort, ect. ect. ect. > [@](#): > > How about the _spirit_ of the convention, then? Does that matter? How about the letter _or_ the spirit of our own damn Constitution and laws? Do they ever enter into the discussion for you? Excellent point and I hope the spirit of the conventions make a comeback. There’s this old clause in the Hague conventions called the “[Martens Clause](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martens_Clause)”; basically it states, “we know the treaty we just wrote is not going to be complete nor perfect nor can it predict future changes, but the spirit of what we are trying to do should not be ignored.” I would wager this clause was overlooked by the previous administration. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/70 "2009-12-29T20:27:14Z")
Do we know why the planners were interred in the first place and why they were released? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/71 "2009-12-29T22:39:41Z")
[Senators Lieberman, McCain And Graham Ask Obama To Halt Transfer Of Yemeni Gitmo Detainees](http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/senators-lieberman-mccain-and-graham-ask-obama-to-halt-transfer-of-yemeni-gitmo-detainees.php?ref=fpblg) > [@](#): > > "We write to express our deep concern about reports that the Administration is planning to transfer six Yemeni nationals, currently being held in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to the custody of the Government of Yemen. These six individuals have been identified as threats to the United States and its allies due to their connections to the Al Qaeda terrorist network. Given the security situation in Yemen and the failure of the Yemeni government to secure high-value prisoners in the past, we believe that any such transfers would be highly unwise and ill-considered. Recent events underscore why this is so… I do wonder the extent to which the claim that “These six individuals have been identified as threats to the United States and its allies due to their connections to the Al Qaeda terrorist network.” is based on gossiup, rumor and hearsay. Our hit rate with Guantanamo inmates has not been high, but I suppose it is possible that at least _some_ of these 6 are actually al Qaeda involved. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/72 "2009-12-30T00:14:28Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Do we know why the planners were interred in the first place and why they were released? were we releasing their spirit or something? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/73 "2009-12-30T00:16:40Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > wars against an ideology only end once the war-waging party has decided that they’ve “won” And what about wars against tactics? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/74 "2009-12-30T00:25:13Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > And what about wars against tactics? I would put that in the same category, obviously. But I don’t think it’s a war on a tactic. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/75 "2009-12-30T01:14:01Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I am well aware of that. Obama’s handling of detainees is one of the increasing number of things that I have been disappointed about with his presidency. > > The whole Gitmo and detention ball of wax involves several multi-faceted issues. Personally, I disfavor the continuance of Gitmo and indefinite detention of suspected terrorists, and favor any moves away from them. Tho Obama has not progressed as far or as quickly as I wish, he certainly has made some progress, and more than I believe anyone would have suspected to have occurred under McCain or the preceding administration. > > But you knew that as well. You can lose the snark. A fair reading of your post would leave the reader thinking you did NOT know that Obama hadn’t abandoned the Bush policy of indefinite detention. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/76 "2009-12-30T01:27:39Z")
OK, here’s something a bit odd about the ABC report that launched this thread. I quote: [[Quote=ABC.com](http://Quote=ABC.com)] Guantanamo prisoner #333, Muhamad Attik al-Harbi, and prisoner #372, Said Ali Shari, were sent to Saudi Arabia on Nov. 9, 2007, according to the Defense Department log of detainees who were released from American custody. Al-Harbi has since changed his name to Muhamad al-Awfi. Both Saudi nationals have since emerged in leadership roles in Yemen, according to U.S. officials and the men’s own statements on al Qaeda propaganda tapes. Both of the former Guantanamo detainees are described as military commanders and appear on a January, 2009 video along with the man described as the top leader of al Qaeda in Yemen, Abu Basir Naser al-Wahishi, formerly Osama bin Laden’s personal secretary. [/Quote] I was wondering who these guys were, so I went looking for other press mentions of these men. Just about the first thing I found was an [Air Force Times reprint of an AP item](http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/02/ap_qaida_surrender_gitmo_021709/) datelined Feb. 17th 2009, that discusses the capture, in Yemen, of one Abu al-Hareth Muhammad al-Oufi. The article goes on to say this: [Quote=Air Force Times] Al-Oufi was detainee number 333 at Guantanamo, and the Pentagon has said number 333 was released from Guantanamo on Nov. 11, 2007. The military had listed his name as Muhamad Attik al-Harbi, but the difference in names has been attributed to the common Arab practice of referring to men by an honorific, like the name of a son. Al-Harbi is a tribal designation. [/Quote] The article states that al-Oufi/al-Harbi surrendered to Yemeni authorities after appearing in an al-Qaida video in January; he was then turned over the Saudis. Assuming he’s still in Saudi custody, exactly how would he be in a position to mastermind the crotch-bombing from Yemen? I’m beginning to suspect the story this thread is based on is a bit garbled, to say the least. I’ll look around a bit more and see if there’s anything else of interest. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/77 "2009-12-30T01:31:59Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I would put that in the same category, obviously. But I don’t think it’s a war on a tactic. Terrorism? Terrorism is certainly a tactic. It’s not an ideology or a group of people. It’s a tactic. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/78 "2009-12-30T01:36:34Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I’m beginning to suspect the story this thread is based on is a bit garbled, to say the least. I’ll look around a bit more and see if there’s anything else of interest. Let us know if anyone named ‘curveball’ puts in an appearance. It’s not as if this’d be the first time we Americans have been manipulated in regard to foreign threats to our security. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/79 "2009-12-30T01:43:05Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Terrorism? Terrorism is certainly a tactic. It’s not an ideology or a group of people. It’s a tactic. yes but the “war on terror” isn’t a war against terrorism, wherever it comes from. it’s more properly described as a war against “islamic extremism” (whatever the fuck that means) but that doesn’t sound sexy enough. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903/80 "2009-12-30T01:47:57Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > yes but the “war on terror” isn’t a war against terrorism, wherever it comes from. it’s more properly described as a war against “islamic extremism” (whatever the fuck that means) but that doesn’t sound sexy enough. Actually it’s sexier than ‘terror’ it’s just not politically correct enough. Because American policy is not allowed to single out ethnic groups. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/released-guantanamo-detainees-planned-fizzled-plane-explosion/522903.md?page=5)