# Relegation for American Sports Teams **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 15, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777 "2006-04-15T13:09:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/41 "2006-04-17T18:28:12Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Let me try and explain with another Cubs example. They have some of the most loyal and rabid fans in all of baseball, yet they haven’t won anything of note for 98 years. Fans have stuck with them through an endless tough spell in hopes they’ll put it together. If in that time they’d been demoted to a lower league that “tough spell” becomes _much_ tougher and more bleak. In any given year the fans start with the hope that they could finally win a World Series, that hope keeps them fans and keeps them buying tickets. If they spent a season or two in a lower division, hope for a World Series would be non-existent for that multi-year span. Even if they quickly got back to Major League play a certain portion of those fans would have given up permanently in that 2-year span and a certain number of fans wouldn’t have kept their season tickets The analogy already exists, in plenty of relegation-based systems. Nothing points to permanent loss of support by teams which have dropped out of and then returned to the top flight. Also, you’re overlooking the fact that every season has the promise of victory, in the form of promotion. Reading recently got into the Premiership, and this is the biggest thing that club has ever won. Ditto Wigan last year. I’ll be back at Portman Road in August, with the hope for the season being a top-two finish. If none of this would apply to American fans, then clearly they’re a fickle fairweather bunch 😉 > [@RealityChuck](#): > > Then there’s natural rivalries. Yankees/Boston is big for both teams, even when they field poor teams. If one was relegated, it hurts both. Giants/Dodgers is another big one: neither team wants to miss a chance to play the other. I’ll concede that this is one drawback to a multi-division structure. However, other local rivalries will emerge…the possibility of next year having the first Ipswich-Colchester league match in decades is a tantalising one. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/42 "2006-04-17T18:55:03Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > **RickJay** , it could be done, but only one way: kill the antitrust exemption. The anti-trust exemption has nothing to do with it. There’s no anti-trust exemption for the NBA or NFL and you don’t see people starting up a franchise without the blessings of the powers that be in those sports. If you could, then LA would probably have a football team right now. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > It certainly would, because if the Royals get sent down, none of their players would accumulate MLB service time (barring a change in how service time is calculated) and therefore pensions and policies like the 10-5 rule would no longer apply. That has nothing to do with the reserve clause though. Even career minor leaguers become automatic free agents after six years, free to negotiate with any team they see fit. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/43 "2006-04-17T19:54:30Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > The anti-trust exemption has nothing to do with it. There’s no anti-trust exemption for the NBA or NFL and you don’t see people starting up a franchise without the blessings of the powers that be in those sports. If you could, then LA would probably have a football team right now. The NFL doesn’t control a minor-league football system, though. The NBA has the NBDL, but it’s barely a league (and it’s certainly not equivalent to minor league baseball.) I don’t see a good reason for the antitrust exemption anyway, but I’m sure someone can make an argument for maintaining it. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/44 "2006-04-18T01:19:20Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I’ll concede that this is one drawback to a multi-division structure. However, other local rivalries will emerge…the possibility of next year having the first Ipswich-Colchester league match in decades is a tantalising one. Perhaps there’s something inherently different about American versus European sensibilities. In the US not a single minor league franchise can succeed or draw any semblance of large fan support in a city which also fields major league sports. The only successful minor league franchises (and successful is a very relative term) exist in cities which do not have any top-level alternatives in the same part of the year. Some of the best minor league clubs play in third-tier cities with populations in the range of 250,000-500,000. Around Chicago there are a handful of minor league clubs, but they draw very poorly due to having so many top-level sports to choose from instead. I suppose we 'Merkin’s are incapable of mustering excitement for anything short of the ultimate pinnacle in sport. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/45 "2006-04-18T02:08:26Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > The NFL doesn’t control a minor-league football system, though. The NBA has the NBDL, but it’s barely a league (and it’s certainly not equivalent to minor league baseball.) Yeah, but the baseball farm system has nothing to do with the anti-trust exemption. Minor league teams choose to affiliate themselves with a major league team because it ensures them (usually) a steady supply of young talent they don’t have to pay for - and hopefully budding superstars that will draw a crowd. However, they aren’t forced to do it. A minor league team could enter into an agreement with a different major league team if the two wanted, or it could go independent if it wanted to give up those players with major league options. If the anti-trust exemption were eliminated, those minor league teams would still have an obligation to fulfill their major league contract and still couldn’t just take off with the talent signed and paid for by the major league affiliate. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/46 "2006-04-18T02:11:52Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I’ll concede that this is one drawback to a multi-division structure. However, other local rivalries will emerge…the possibility of next year having the first Ipswich-Colchester league match in decades is a tantalising one. I don’t know that geographic rivalries are that important in U.S. pro sports (with rare exceptions.) The expected regional rivalries when Major League Baseball began interleague play by and large have never materialized (fans of National League teams would rather see their clubs play the Yankees or Red Sox rather than, say St. Louis-Kansas City or Cleveland-Cinncinatti). The National Football League does have a watered-down sort of relegation with teams schedules based in part on a team’s record, but the core of the schedule is still divisional opponents. And weak or strong, all the teams are still part of the same NFL. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/47 "2006-04-18T03:13:42Z")
> [@brianjedi](#): > > The NFL doesn’t control a minor-league football system, though. The NBA has the NBDL, but it’s barely a league (and it’s certainly not equivalent to minor league baseball.) > > I don’t see a good reason for the antitrust exemption anyway, but I’m sure someone can make an argument for maintaining it. There are good arguments for giving all sports leagues SOME limited antitrust exemptions, but there’s absolutely NO intelligent, sane case for giving such an exemption to major league baseball only. When Curt Flood challenged baseball’s antitrust exemption in the Supreme Court, Harry Blackmun wrote the decision upholding the exemption. And the decision was an embarrassment! It was filled with sentimental hosannas to the greats of baseball history, and made little or no attempt to explain in legal terms why baseball was not a business like any other. (I bring this up because, occasionally, I have to remind pro-life friends that Roe vs. Wade was NOT the stupidest, least rational decision Harry Blackmun ever wrote!!!) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/48 "2006-04-18T06:27:12Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > In the US not a single minor league franchise can succeed or draw any semblance of large fan support in a city which also fields major league sports. … Around Chicago there are a handful of minor league clubs, but they draw very poorly due to having so many top-level sports to choose from instead. At the risk of being circuitous, I’m sure it would be easier for minor league teams to gain more support if they stood the chance of earning a place in the upper levels by winning their league. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/49 "2006-04-18T13:29:28Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > There are good arguments for giving all sports leagues SOME limited antitrust exemptions, but there’s absolutely NO intelligent, sane case for giving such an exemption to major league baseball only. > > When Curt Flood challenged baseball’s antitrust exemption in the Supreme Court, Harry Blackmun wrote the decision upholding the exemption. And the decision was an embarrassment! It was filled with sentimental hosannas to the greats of baseball history, and made little or no attempt to explain in legal terms why baseball was not a business like any other. To be fair, Blackmun was writing from a position of stare decisis. Contrary to curiously popular belief, the “anti-trust exemption” is not an act of Congress and isn’t really an exemption at all. The 1922 court decision said that the law was not relevant to MLB, because MLB (allegedly) does not engage in true interstate commerce. ---
**Author:** ![Improvisor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/50afbb/32.png) [@Improvisor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Improvisor)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/50 "2006-04-18T22:15:56Z")
Does anyone have any idea why the new US Major League Soccer went with the franchise model vs. the European promotion/relegation model? They are a new league, so they could have used any set-up they desired. Using promotion/relegation would have mirrored the existing European football system die-hard American soccer fans are already familiar with. Even if they only started off with the very limited markets they launched with a few years back, it would have given other major cities (Seattle, San Francisco, Indianapolis, Atlanta, etc.) a way to get into the league. Seems to me the only reason is money and the owners of MLS wanting to assure cash flow back to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/51 "2006-04-18T22:36:15Z")
> [@Improvisor](#): > > Does anyone have any idea why the new US Major League Soccer went with the franchise model vs. the European promotion/relegation model? > > They are a new league, so they could have used any set-up they desired. Using promotion/relegation would have mirrored the existing European football system die-hard American soccer fans are already familiar with. Isn’t the whole point that MLS is designed to attract new fans? (And seems to be succeeding). The danger is that if it becomes successful, able to match the quality of middling European leagues, the lack of internal competition from below could become a threat. ---
**Author:** ![Improvisor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/50afbb/32.png) [@Improvisor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Improvisor)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2006, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/52 "2006-04-18T23:56:52Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Isn’t the whole point that MLS is designed to attract new fans? (And seems to be succeeding). The danger is that if it becomes successful, able to match the quality of middling European leagues, the lack of internal competition from below could become a threat. I’m not sure I follow you. I agree that MLS wants and needs to attract new fans to the sport of soccer. But they could have set up a European style league. For example, MLS contains: Chivas USA (LA) Colorado Dallas Houston Los Angeles Salt lake City Chicago Columbus D.C. Kansas City New England NYC USL First Division (the next level down (relatively speaking) from MLS) contains Atlanta Charleston Miami Minnesota Montreal Portland Puerto Rico Rochester Seattle Toronto Vancouver Virginia Beach Now, I’m living in Seattle and would much rather support the Seattle Sounders if I knew that they had a chance to move up to the MLS instead of knowing that their best players every year will just be cherry picked by other MLS teams. And with the current teams, MLS/USL could have setup a North American system that mimics Europe if they wanted to. So, it rings back to the OP of would American fans be able to embrace a system like this, or are American owners trying to keep complete control of the bank? Also, I think that MLS would want nothing more than to have their league be comptetive with the European leagues or FAPL. How cool would that be… Chelsea vs. the Rochester Rhinos. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/53 "2006-04-19T01:06:23Z")
> [@Improvisor](#): > > Seems to me the only reason is money and the owners of MLS wanting to assure cash flow back to themselves. And you just answered your own question. The only opinions that matter are those of the owners, and to a much lesser extent the players. That explaination also responds to **Gorillaman’s** statement. Indeed minor league franchises would benefit, but they have no say in the matter. Minor league franchises would effectively become competition for the major leagues, and I see no rational explaination why those same major league owners would make a business decision which would help their competition. I reassert the claim that relegation is the anomoly, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/54 "2006-04-19T05:30:16Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I reassert the claim that relegation is the anomoly, not the other way around. And I re-request evidence to back this up 🙂 It may be unusual in America, but not worldwide. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/55 "2006-04-19T05:44:57Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > And I re-request evidence to back this up 🙂 It may be unusual in America, but not worldwide. Wish I could. I just don’t know enough about the European sports landscape to make a good case for it. I know that it’s not just rare but totally unheard of in professional sports in the US and Canada. You don’t hear about it as it applies to baseball leagues in Latin America or the Pacific Rim either. I know it’s used in English and European Soccer, but aside from that I have no knowldge of it being used anywhere else. Do European basketball, rugby, cricket, or hckey league use it? Do any of the Australian leagues? Soccer in Africa or South America? I just don’t know and I’m not energetic enough to conduct a extensive web search at the moment. Based on my knowledge of sports it seems that relegation seems less common than the standard American system, but I don’t pretend my knowledge extends that far outside the US. All professional sports leagues are largely based on the systems created in the US and England at around the same time, so it’s not easy to say which format dominates. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/56 "2006-04-19T06:22:23Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I know it’s used in English and European Soccer, but aside from that I have no knowldge of it being used anywhere else. Do European basketball, rugby, cricket, or hckey league use it? Do any of the Australian leagues? Soccer in Africa or South America? English county cricket uses the system, and only introduced it a few years ago. Various rugby leagues use it. Google tells me that it’s used in the main football leagues of Brazil, South Africa, Japan, and Argentina (in a modified ‘averaging’ system). Australia is a notable exception. I too have no knowledge whatsoever of European basketball or hockey, but a quick google for an example big enough to accomodate such a system shows that the Russian Pro Hockey League has a two-division structure. And even tennis has it, in the Davis Cup. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2006, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777/57 "2006-04-19T07:34:21Z")
Did a little Googling and found [url=http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/pls/portallive/docs/1/1161927.PDF]this Academic paper written by a couple guys at Imperial College London discussing it. It’s pretty in depth and has a lot of math, most of which I didn’t read, but it’s conclusion states: > [@](#): > > We find that a promotion and relegation system typically > enhances the incentive to contribute effort and hence to dissipate > rents, which may be considered an enhancement of social welfare. > On the other hand, promotion and relegation is also likely to > inhibit incentives to share resources. Redistribution in team sports > is frequently considered beneficial not only for the owners, since > the incentive to compete is weakened, but also for consumers, > who are said to prefer more balanced contests. To the extent that > this is true, promotion and relegation may reduce social welfare. > Whatever the welfare implications, we argue that the effects > of promotion and relegation on incentives are broadly consistent > with what we observe on either side of Atlantic. In Europe, where > the system is applied, teams compete intensively — to the point > of bankruptcy in fact — and seem unwilling to share resources. > In the US, where the system does not apply, economic competition > is less intense and teams do share resources. While this paper > cannot be said to be the final word, we believe it points to a > potentially fruitful avenue for both empirical and theoretical > research. The scope of the article is narrow, but I take from it the following: Open leagues are better for taxpayers and consumers and increase efforts by the teams to compete. Closed leagues are better for competitive balance and revenue sharing. Open leagues run a consistent finacial risk for the owners not present in a closed system. From a more general perspective, it’s probably true that financially fans and consumers would benefit from open leagues, but owners would lose out signifigantly. Owners try harder to win in open systems, which benefits fans, but smaller markets suffer greatly and competitive balance suffers without revenue sharing. Long story short, open systems hurt owners, ergo it’s ain’t happening without governmental intervention. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-for-american-sports-teams/352777.md?page=2)