# Relegation vs. Farm System **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** basketball-nba, baseball-mlb, hockey-nhl\ **Created:** [November 18, 2025, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959 "2025-11-18T17:07:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/41 "2025-11-19T12:14:23Z")
I imagine that’s at least two orders of magnitude higher than the US. Maybe only one, if you count every college varsity team? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/42 "2025-11-19T12:24:39Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Maybe only one, if you count every college varsity team? That’s another crucial difference. Sports at colleges and universities virtually don’t play any role in Germany. Some colleges may have soccer (or basketball or other sports) teams, but they don’t even compete in the league system, but rather sometimes play friendlies against other colleges. Nobody goes to college to do sports, except for students of actual sports science. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/43 "2025-11-19T12:58:37Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > That was one of the reasons someone stated about why pro/rel wouldn’t work in a franchise system – if the teams aren’t tied to their city then, something? The baseball farm teams move cities and shut down all the time, so there’s no sense of permanence there either. The Red Sox AAA team recently moved from Providence (the PawSox) to Worchester (the WooSox). For the most part, minor league teams are created and removed at the whim of the parent clubs. Local towns have little say in the matter, which is the exact opposite of what is needed for pro rel. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/44 "2025-11-19T14:09:02Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The baseball farm teams move cities and shut down all the time, so there’s no sense of permanence there either. That’s not entirely true. It’s more common in the very low leagues where the stadiums are small and revenue even smaller - but there’s a lot of longevity in minor league baseball. The Rochester Red Wings have been around since 1899. 21 of the 30 AAA teams have been around since before 2000. There was a large shakeup in the minor league system a few years when the owners decided minor league players making $10,000/year were a big drag on their billion dollar industry, so they thinned the herd, and relocated or shuttered quite a few low minor teams. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/45 "2025-11-19T14:35:58Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > That’s not entirely true. You’re absolutely correct that some minor league teams have long histories and significant fan bases. But it’s also true that most AAA teams have changed their MLB affiliation many times over the years (often with name changes), with players getting swapped out with great regularity. It’s hard for a fanbase to develop a relationship with the players since they shift around so much. Also, the statium capacity in AAA range from 6500 to 16600, too small to support an MLB roster. The As are currently playing in the Sacramento River Cats stadium (seating for 14014) while preparing for the move to Las Vegas and it’s a tiny place. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/46 "2025-11-19T14:57:27Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > It’s hard for a fanbase to develop a relationship with the players since they shift around so much. It’s been my impression that fans in minor league cities develop that relationship with the team itself. The Indianapolis Indians have been affiliated with the Brewers (5 years) and Pirates (21 years) while I’ve lived here since 2000. Their history shows 13 different affiliations since becoming a minor league team (after nearly 40 years of being independent). And yes - minor league stadiums (and fan bases) are too small to support a major league roster. That doesn’t mean pro-rel wouldn’t work. It just means some teams would be traditionally locked into the lower tiers, and promotion to the majors would likely be a very temporary thing. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/47 "2025-11-19T15:59:33Z")
The peak of the MLB minor leagues was probably 1947. [1947 Minor League Baseball Statistics and Rosters from the Stats Crew](https://www.statscrew.com/minorbaseball/y-1947) Most leagues had 6 or 8 teams. Cleveland Indians had 17 minor-league teams, while the Brooklyn Dodgers had 24, and the New York Yankees had 20. I learned quite a bit about small Texas towns by reading the stats printed on the backs of 1950s and 1960s baseball cards, such as the Ballinger (Cats) and the Big Spring (Broncs) in the Longhorn League (class D). Joe Baumann played for Roswell NM in the league in 1954 and hit 72 home runs. 337 career homers, and he never played a major-league game. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/48 "2025-11-19T20:12:06Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > And yes - minor league stadiums (and fan bases) are too small to support a major league roster. That doesn’t mean pro-rel wouldn’t work. It just means some teams would be traditionally locked into the lower tiers, and promotion to the majors would likely be a very temporary thing. I looked at stadia sizes in English football. The average capacity of a Premier League stadium is 39,000; while the average capacity of a stadium in the second level (confusingly called League One) is 15,000. So there is a big difference between the top tier clubs and the lower group and yet they have promotion and relegation. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/49 "2025-11-19T20:19:10Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > The average capacity of a Premier League stadium is 39,000; while the average capacity of a stadium in the second level (confusingly called League One) is 15,000. I’d be curious to know if second-level teams which regularly finish at or near the top (and get promoted to the Premier League, even if they don’t always stick there) have bigger stadiums than those teams which rarely, if ever, make it to the top tier. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/50 "2025-11-19T21:42:06Z")
The three teams promoted this year to Premier League: - Leeds United: 37,645 - Sunderland: 48,095 - Burnley: 21,990 The three teams relegated to EFL Championship - Leicester City: 32,259 - Ipswich Town: 30,056 - Southampton: 32,384 > [@zimaane](#): > > while the average capacity of a stadium in the second level (confusingly called League One) is 15,000. The second level in British football is the EFL Championship league, and only two teams have stadiums smaller than 15,000. The average is more like 29,000, with one at nearly 40,000. The average size for Premier League is around 40,000. So the difference (on average) is not that great. Compare that to baseball, the average MLB stadium seats around 43,000 versus AAA which is around 10,000. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/51 "2025-11-19T21:50:02Z")
The USA has competed quite decently on the world stage, though. In the FIFA World Cup for instance - Quarterfinals in 2002, Round of Sixteen in 2010, 2014, 2022. Not saying we don’t need a relegation pyramid system; we do - but we’ve done better than many other nations that do have more-established soccer systems. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/52 "2025-11-19T22:09:38Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The second level in British football is the EFL Championship league, and only two teams have stadiums smaller than 15,000. The average is more like 29,000, with one at nearly 40,000. The average size for Premier League is around 40,000. So the difference (on average) is not that great. My mistake. League One is the third level on the pyramid, not the second. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2025, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/53 "2025-11-20T23:43:42Z")
Baseball’s farm system is a sham. Nobody really cares about minor league teams, because they know the players aren’t sticking around and the manager is getting paid to develop players, not to win. Compare the NFL/NBA’s de facto farm system, the NCAA. Fans of tiny schools are every bit as passionate as fans of big ones, because they’re following real sports, where the players and coaches are being judged on their ability to actually win games. Accordingly, the NCAA is enormously popular, while minor league baseball…isn’t. Major League owners are screwing fans in non-major league markets and acting against the best interest of the sport, by perpetuating an arrangement that only benefits them. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2025, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/54 "2025-11-20T23:44:17Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > My mistake. League One is the third level on the pyramid, not the second. Well, of course it is, that’s only logical! 🤪 ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2025, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/55 "2025-11-20T23:58:17Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Those teams have small stadiums in small cities, no significant fan base and no draw when they travel. Who wants to see the Dodgers play the Toledo Mudhens? The historic model of how farm teams and league driven sports developed in the US is fundementally opposed to regulation. > > This isn’t to say regulation isn’t a fine way of running things, but there’s too much historical inertia in the US model for it to work here. No, historically the minor leagues were actual leagues, with independently owned teams competing against each other. The takeover by MLB happened gradually between the 1920s and 1950s, at which time interest in minor league baseball dried up. We could, and should, abolish the farm team system without implementing a promotion/relegation system, but I think that would also be a good idea. There are lots of markets that are just as big as the smallest MLB markets, and they can’t all get expansion teams. So maybe it would be better to let the likes of Pittsburgh, Portland, and Louisville have their own league, where the incentive for winning is a chance to compete against the New Yorks and Chicagos next year. I have to think Pirates fans would be happier with an arrangement that actually made it realistically possible for them to win their league sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/56 "2025-11-21T01:13:30Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I have to think Pirates fans would be happier with an arrangement that actually made it realistically possible for them to win their league sometimes. I can’t speak for Pirates fans, but I am a fan of the Kansas City Royals. In their 50+ year history, KC has won 4 AL pennants and 2 world championships. Not exactly a stellar record, but the fact that the Royals have won championships and could win more keeps me being a fan. They already are in an situation where it’s realistic that they can win their league. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/57 "2025-11-21T01:31:24Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Nobody really cares about minor league teams, because they know the players aren’t sticking around and the manager is getting paid to develop players, not to win. This is incorrect. Plenty of people care about minor league teams, and go regularly to the games. There is certainly knowledge that players can be called up, but for the most a player’s trajectory is baked into the experience - it’s rare to show up to a game and find out that Junior Superba got called up, and when it does happen, no one’s pissed about it. Likewise, managers aren’t coaching to lose, and “player development” doesn’t make a dramatic change on the outcome of a game. Maybe the young phenom pitcher is on a pitch count, or a rehabbing veteran is ramping up - but any particular game isn’t going to be managed in such a dramatically different way for it not to resemble professional baseball. ---
**Author:** ![John\_T.Conklin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_t.conklin/32/3307_2.png) [@John\_T.Conklin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_T.Conklin)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/58 "2025-11-21T01:35:49Z")
FWIW, There was a recent Freaknomics Podcast on this subject “[Should Ohio State and Michigan and Clemson join the NFL](https://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-ohio-state-and-michigan-and-clemson-join-the-n-f-l/)”. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/59 "2025-11-21T02:20:45Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Plenty of people care about minor league teams, and go regularly to the games. I know that in my area, the [Tacoma Rainiers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Rainiers) can be a really good time. Cheap seats, decent play for the minors (being AAA after all), and just about every player in the Mariners who was homegrown plays there first, so you’ll see budding stars. I personally have never attended a game (I’m not a huge baseball fan) but my wife has many times, and she says it’s great. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/60 "2025-11-21T02:27:23Z")
The number of people who “really care” about minor league games isn’t literally zero, but it’s a tiny fragment of the people who really care about college sports. I’m guessing that’s because most people aren’t going to get emotionally involved with a team if the expectation is “our best players could vanish at any time, and nobody should get pissed about that”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959.md?page=4)