# Relegation vs. Farm System **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** basketball-nba, baseball-mlb, hockey-nhl\ **Created:** [November 18, 2025, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959 "2025-11-18T17:07:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/81 "2025-11-21T11:43:19Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > minor league baseball is orders of magnitude less popular than the collegiate farm systems for the other major sports Is it your belief that college football and basketball exist as farm systems for the NFL and NBA? Comparing minor league baseball to collegiate football and basketball is definitely not a valid comparison, IMO. Anyway, probably enough of a hijack. I don’t think we’ll see the Colorado Rockies demoted to AAA anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/82 "2025-11-21T12:41:05Z")
I enjoy going to minor-league baseball games - if they are being played at a convenient time in the city in which I’m in. For a brief time, Australia had a “winter league” attracting a few MLB players (I think each team was allowed a certain maximum number of MLB players - the rest were either minor-leaguers or locals). I saw a doubleheader in Melbourne, with the announcer trying to explain the rules along the way. Between games - the highlight was for random people to stand at home plate and try to toss a Frisbee over the outfield fence to win a prize (I didn’t see anyone succeed). ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/83 "2025-11-21T12:45:43Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Is it your belief that college football and basketball exist as farm systems for the NFL and NBA? That’s not their origins, nor their stated purpose. But that is how they function at the highest level. Players from FBS schools make up 93% of the NFL. For Div 1 basketball to the NBA, the number is around 85%. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/84 "2025-11-21T13:49:53Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > That’s not their origins, nor their stated purpose. But that is how they function at the highest level. That is certainly a valid point, and nobody will dispute that fact. But a high-school basketball player doesn’t get drafted by an NBA team, sign a contract, and play college ball for a year or two before finally playing for the pro team.. Whereas a high-school baseball player might get drafted by an MLB team, sign a pro contract, and then play in several levels of minor-league ball before playing in the bigs. Big difference, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/85 "2025-11-21T13:58:25Z")
Yes, if you׳re going to continue ignoring my point while refusing to answer the simple question I’ve repeatedly asked, I guess there’s little point in continuing. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/86 "2025-11-21T14:02:35Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > That is certainly a valid point, and nobody will dispute that fact. But a high-school basketball player doesn’t get drafted by an NBA team, sign a contract, and play college ball for a year or two before finally playing for the pro team.. Whereas a high-school baseball player might get drafted by an MLB team, sign a pro contract, and then play in several levels of minor-league ball before playing in the bigs. Big difference, IMO. And also completely irrelevant to anything being discussed here, but you do you. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/87 "2025-11-21T14:25:16Z")
I’m not sure how many times I have to repeat that the point I’m making has nothing to do with what players or coaches are doing. How hard it is to understand that IT’S NOT A REAL SPORT IF NOBODY CARES WHO WINS? In a real sport, the fans go home at the end of the season wondering what roster moves might be made in the offseason, how players might develop or decline in the next year, whether a coaching change should be made. A season isn’t just a bunch of games, it’s part of a larger narrative stretching across years and generations. _That’s_ what minor league baseball lacks. Every year is just another bunch of random guys, none of whom actually want to be there. I believe that this lack explains the indisputable fact that minor league baseball is far less popular than the developmental leagues for the other major sports. If anyone disagrees, it would be nice to hear an alternative explanation for that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/88 "2025-11-21T14:35:57Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > How hard it is to understand that IT’S NOT A REAL SPORT IF NOBODY CARES WHO WINS? You can say it louder, it’s still nonsense. You may not enjoy the narrative of a minor league baseball season - but it still exists. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > A season isn’t just a bunch of games, it’s part of a larger narrative stretching across years and generations. _That’s_ what minor league baseball lacks. “Generations”?! Oh my god - get a grip. Go to an Indy Indians game, and casually mention the name “Razor Shines”. He hasn’t played minor league ball since 1993. The team retired his jersey last year and the place sold out. Seemingly rveryone at Victory Field over the age of 40 has a Razor Shines story. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Every year is just another bunch of random guys, none of whom actually want to be there. You don’t actually follow baseball, do you? > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > the indisputable fact that minor league baseball is far less popular than the developmental leagues for the other major sports Only if you ignore developmental basketball leagues or minor league hockey leagues. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/89 "2025-11-21T14:36:04Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Is it your belief that college football and basketball exist as farm systems for the NFL and NBA? Well, of course they are, but that’s not _all_ they are. They also exist as independent entities which are trying to win games in order to attract fans and recruits. They are developing players for the pro leagues, but they don’t get paid to do that, they get paid to actually win games and make fans happy. That’s why people are passionate about those teams. Fans show up because they want to see their team win, not because they want to have a fun inexpensive family outing and maybe get to say they saw someone play before he was famous. It’s a whole different experience, and the market tells us that fans find it a much more engaging one. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/90 "2025-11-21T14:39:18Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Only if you ignore developmental basketball leagues or minor league hockey leagues. So your contention is that “developmental basketball leagues” like the G League, and not the NCAA, are where NBA players come from? OK. I guess that’s easier than attempting to actually answer the question I keep asking. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/91 "2025-11-21T14:44:45Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > So your contention is that “developmental basketball leagues” like the G League, and not the NCAA, are where NBA players come from? Those are not the same thing. If you want to refer to college being the origin of NBA basketball players, that’s fine - but stop calling college the “developmental league”, because that’s not what they are. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > the question I keep asking Apologies for not finding this needle you’ve hidden in your mountainous screed of chaff. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/92 "2025-11-21T14:47:30Z")
Why do you think that, relative to NCAA football and basketball, minor league baseball has very few fans? Why doesn’t anyone care about it enough for the games to be on TV? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/93 "2025-11-21T15:02:11Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > “Generations”?! Oh my god - get a grip. Go to an Indy Indians game, and casually mention the name “Razor Shines”. He hasn’t played minor league ball since 1993. The team retired his jersey last year and the place sold out. Seemingly rveryone at Victory Field over the age of 40 has a Razor Shines story. TIL that Razor Shines holds the MLB record for reaching base the most times (24) without ever scoring. It’s cool that Indy fans liked him, but he’s clearly an outlier, given that the Indians haven’t retired any other numbers in their 100+ year history. And it’s only at the _highest_ level of the minor leagues that players might stick around long enough to form that kind of bond with fans; nobody is ever going to play nine seasons with my Eugene Emeralds. For the average minor league team, in the A or AA leagues, it really is just a new bunch of guys every year. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/94 "2025-11-21T15:12:35Z")
Ok, fair enough - those are good questions. The answers are certainly not “because minor league baseball isn’t a sport”. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Why do you think that, relative to NCAA football and basketball, minor league baseball has very few fans? You’re comparing Texas, Alabama and Notre Dame to the Cannapolis Cannonballers, when you should be comparing the Indiana University of Indianapolis Jaguars to the Indianapolis Indians, or the Creighton Blue Jays to the Omaha Storm Chasers or Middle Tennessee St. Blue Raiders to the Nashville Sounds. Neither the Jags, Blue Raiders, nor the Blue Jays have a TV deal outside of random appearances on the Ocho. Why is that? These are all regional schools with limited recruiting and no national attention. They don’t have generations of history or a parade of successful alums who made it on the bigger stage of the NBA or NFL. It’s the same reason Kansas Jayhawks basketball is a million times more popular than the UMKC Kangaroos. The Roos play in the heart of downtown Kansas City, albeit it in a 1,600 capacity arena they likely never fill, while the Jayhawks play out in the middle of nowhere Kansas in Lawrence, but pack Allen Fieldhouse every single game. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/95 "2025-11-21T15:34:12Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > also completely irrelevant to anything being discussed here My obvious point was that college sports are not part of a farm system for the professional leagues. Yes, they are a place to showcase the talents of the top-tier players, but no college team is affiliated with any pro team. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Why do you think that, relative to NCAA football and basketball, minor league baseball has very few fans In 2025, Minor league baseball drew 3,847 fans per game on average. There were a total of 30,360,682 fans. [Source](https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/milb-attendance-down-2-9-percent-in-2025-tops-30-million-with-late-season-surge/) In 2024-25, at the D1 level of college basketball, the average per game attendance was 4,491, with a total of 29,598,765 fans. [Source](http://fs.ncaa.org.s3.amazonaws.com/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Attend.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/96 "2025-11-21T16:00:04Z")
Both college sports and minor league ball have scads of tiny teams with strictly local followings (MiLB fewer than it used to), but the minor leagues don’t have the equivalent of Alabama or Notre Dame, the big fish at the top of the pool. You could argue that the major leagues are that equivalent, but therein lies the rub. There are only 30 MLB teams. In terms of media attention and fan interest, the gap between the least popular MLB team and the most popular MiLB team is huge. The number of fans who pay closer attention to MiLB than to MLB is minuscule. In college, there’s no huge drop in fan interest between #30 and #31. Even without promotion and relegation, it’s possible for teams in smaller leagues to gain national followings by dominating those leagues (Boise State, Gonzaga). Thus, **the number of fans who have a local team rooted in their community to support is much larger, which is a good thing IMO.** (bolded to distinguish main point from chaff) (Granted, this argument would have been stronger before the recent changes to college football, which suck.) Imagine if the Indianapolis Indians were a free team, with a manager and GM hired by, um, Indianapolitans rather than Pittsburghers. Good ol’ Razor could have spent his entire career as an Indian, maybe leading the team to some American Association pennants and being properly honored at the time of his retirement, rather than finishing his career with (checks Wiki) the Mexico City Reds. His Wikipedia article would describe him primarily as a hero of Victory Field, not as a guy who had a few cups of coffee in the big leagues and holds an embarrassing record; as a general in a small war, not as cannon fodder in a big one. How would that not have been better? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/97 "2025-11-21T16:08:58Z")
If we’re going by attendance figures alone, then Major League Soccer is the third most popular pro league in the US, barely behind MLB. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports_attendance_figures) If we look at things like TV ratings and total revenue generated, it’s a very different story. Subjectively, if you don’t agree that there’s a meaningful difference between being a FAN of a particular team and being someone who enjoys going to games sometimes, I guess you’re not going to get my point. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/98 "2025-11-21T16:19:48Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > My obvious point was that college sports are not part of a farm system for the professional leagues. Yes, they are a place to showcase the talents of the top-tier players, but no college team is affiliated with any pro team. And my obvious point is that _that’s why college sports are better_, and that baseball should do it the better way. (except that minor league teams shouldn’t be conflated with institutions of higher learning, that part is weird) ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/99 "2025-11-21T16:31:00Z")
I guess you’re looking at average attendance from that source? It’s weird to compare stadium sports like MLS and the NFL with much smaller arena attendance sizes. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2025, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959/100 "2025-11-21T16:32:07Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > How would that not have been better? It would have been different, certainly. “Better” is in the eye of the beholder I guess. There are still independent baseball teams and leagues. A friend of mine in Evansville regularly goes to Otters games, where they play games at Bosse Field, the third oldest baseball stadium in regular use for professional ball. The team’s existence is a point of community pride - but it goes through financial difficulties regularly. Bosse Field is extremely cool in that it’s so old and still going. They filmed “A League of Their Own” there! But Victory Field is also a gem of a downtown stadium, albeit much newer. Despite the on-field personnel (coaches, training staff and players) being hired by Pittsburgh, the rest of the Indians organization (general manager, owner, staff) is locally owned and operated. If Pittsburgh wasn’t part of the equation, I suspect the Indians would look far more like the Otters than they do the Pirates, and I find that vastly superior. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/relegation-vs-farm-system/1024959.md?page=6)