# Religion - A place to throw it all away? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2006, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203 "2006-12-22T08:54:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/21 "2006-12-22T13:33:28Z")
Religion and faith can bring one greater understanding of oneself, your place in the universe, and can be mind expanding - much like philosophy. It brings about questions and seeks answers. Those answers are those of our ancestors, which have served them well over the centuries, and has a track record as being a successful way to live one’s life. So even in a non-religious way religion is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/22 "2006-12-22T13:40:34Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Religion and faith can bring one greater understanding of oneself, your place in the universe, and can be mind expanding - much like philosophy. It brings about questions and seeks answers. Those answers are those of our ancestors, which have served them well over the centuries, and has a track record as being a successful way to live one’s life. So even in a non-religious way religion is a good thing. [/QUOTE] I agree that having a greater understanding and seeking answers are good things. Religion doesn’t always do that, and in my biased opinion, generally suggests or mandates answers rather than encouraging open and critical dialogue. I wouldn’t point to the historical role of religion as a good thing, either. At least, not without serious qualifications and exceptions. And I don’t think a strong argument can be made for the temporal invariance of religious answers. What you describe sounds great in terms of an individual personal search. For my money, the problem comes in, as it often does, when organizations are involved. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/23 "2006-12-22T13:45:11Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Justifiably? Not in my opinion, no. Certainly not enough to motivate someone to post after months of hiatus only to say that they aren’t going to come back any more. Also, if this is the place for witnessing, shouldn’t it also be the place for the other end of the witnessing spectrum? Or are evidence-free expositions on religion only okay if they are in favor of religion? [/QUOTE] Well, it would be nice if it was a place where people from all parts of the spectrum could just speak up, without taking offence, without storming off in a huff. It would also be nice if people could voice their disagreement without it being assumed that they’d taken offence. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/24 "2006-12-22T13:56:51Z")
**Hentor the Barbarian** religion can be blindly followed or not, it really is up to the person and can be used either way. As for the historical role, groups of people who followed religions and procedures that did not work died out, religious practices and procedures from people who survived and prospered is a good indication that they have something right. Sort of like a ‘way to live’ natural selection, sometimes called a mime if I understand that term. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/25 "2006-12-22T14:26:05Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] It would also be nice if people could voice their disagreement without it being assumed that they’d taken offence. [/QUOTE] If I’ve misunderstood anyone’s statement about this discussion being personally insulting, I do apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/26 "2006-12-22T14:29:41Z")
It might be that I’ve misunderstood yours - I took your post #18 to be generally addressing the respondents to the OP, rather than specifically addressing **Lib** ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/27 "2006-12-22T14:41:05Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] Because that is the claim. It is not a Jamesian view about the pragmatic truth of the change. Catholics hold that it actually changes into the body of God. [/QUOTE] Too bad for you that’s not the entirety of their claim. They claim that not only do the species become the flesh and blood of the Savior, but that it cannot be scientifically proven to do so. It is a matter of belief. As such, it has its uses as humans apparently like to believe things. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/28 "2006-12-22T14:49:41Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] My personal goals are by their very nature subjective. It is like being in love. You are either are or you are not. That question is entirely an agent question. It is about my specific viewpoint. The question of whether the waifer is changed into the flesh of God is different. It should be subjected to a non-agent viewpoint. Any viewpoint should show it actually changed into the flesh of God regrdless of desire. [/QUOTE] First and foremost, why do you insist on drawing a distinction between persons’ religious faith and all other subjective non-rational attitudes? (Notice that I am **not** talking about the question of whether God objectively really exists and if so in what form or with what characteristics; that question is directly focused on the subjective choice of the individual.) Second, you’re entirely right. A commission consisting of Pope Benedict, **ME Buckner** (atheist), **Monty** (Mormon), **zev steinhart** (Orthodox Jew), **matt\_mcl** (pagan), and myself (Anglican) would unanimously reach the same conclusions: The characteristics apprehensible to human senses or to any scientific test demonstrate the continuance of the _accidentes_ of bread and wine. There is nothing we can do in terms of running tests that would demonstrate anything but. _Precisely as Aquinas and the Council of Trent both specified_. As to the underlying _substance_ in Aquinian metaphysics, we’d come to the same conclusion: “Catholics and some other Christians believe that its inherent _nature_ has been transformed into a means whereby God in a unique way enters into the believer to strengthen him and join him into the divine community.” At Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there were people caught in the bomb blasts who were literally vaporized. No corpse, no ashes – their material selves were transformed into plasma and dispersed as colloidal fallout. Did they suddenly become un-persons, ones which had not existed? There’s no longer evidence for the existence of some of them. No proof they were there. However, the whole issue of metaphysical explanations of sacrament and “theological anthropology” (you will be sorry you asked! ;)) seem to do very little towards proving the “pro” side of the question inherent in your thread title. What’s being thrown away? Why? Is this beneficial (as in disposing properly of hazardous waste) or malific (as in vandalism)? Why is religion equated with a place, and a waste transfer site to boot? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/29 "2006-12-22T15:51:10Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] Second, you’re entirely right. A commission consisting of Pope Benedict, **ME Buckner** (atheist), **Monty** (Mormon), **zev steinhart** (Orthodox Jew), **matt\_mcl** (pagan), and myself (Anglican)… [/QUOTE] Sure, leave out the Assembly of God/Hopeful Universalist guy… _sniff_ ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/30 "2006-12-22T15:56:11Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] Can you give a rational evidence based defense of specific religious beliefs using the scientific method? [/QUOTE] Is the scientific method the only valid means by which beliefs should be acquired? ---
**Author:** ![Ammonius\_Saccus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@Ammonius\_Saccus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ammonius_Saccus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/31 "2006-12-22T20:18:55Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] Is the scientific method the only valid means by which beliefs should be acquired? [/QUOTE] If they are beliefs about objective phenomenon. Subjectve phenomenon can be justified in other ways. > [@](#): > > At Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there were people caught in the bomb blasts who were literally vaporized. No corpse, no ashes – their material selves were transformed into plasma and dispersed as colloidal fallout. Did they suddenly become un-persons, ones which had not existed? There’s no longer evidence for the existence of some of them. No proof they were there. Why do you have to look at their existence only from the post-bomb time. If they actually existed before the bomb, then they existed. there would be plenty of evidence at the time. Further, there may still be evidence today. Birth records, school records, people who remeber them. IS that as good of evidence as was available when they were actually alive? No, but it is not as if there is no evidence. And even if there is no evidence of specific people there will be evidence of people in general of lived there. > [@](#): > > What’s being thrown away? Why? Crtical evaluation of beliefs to see if they are justified because religious beliefs that make claims about reality are tested. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/32 "2006-12-22T21:02:04Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] > [@](#): > > Is the scientific method the only valid means by which beliefs should be acquired? If they are beliefs about objective phenomenon. Subjectve phenomenon can be justified in other ways. [/QUOTE] Okay. So you’re saying “The scientific method is the only valid means by which beliefs on objective phenomena should be acquired.” Correct? Is that objectively true? If so, which scientific studies have demonstrated this belief to be true? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/33 "2006-12-22T21:07:35Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] Is religion just a compartment where you are willing to throw it all away? [/QUOTE] If it is, what are the tax implications? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/34 "2006-12-22T21:11:35Z")
[QUOTE=Ammonius Saccus] Why do you have to look at their existence only from the post-bomb time. If they actually existed before the bomb, then they existed. there would be plenty of evidence at the time. Further, there may still be evidence today. Birth records, school records, people who remeber them. IS that as good of evidence as was available when they were actually alive? No, but it is not as if there is no evidence. [/quote] You have the most blase opinion about being at Ground Zero of an atomic blast of anybody this side of Jake Stonebender. Odds are all those records and anyone who knew them were vaporised along with them. > [@](#): > > And even if there is no evidence of specific people there will be evidence of people in general of lived there. But I thought hearsay evidence of experiences of those in the past was unacceptable. > [@](#): > > Critical evaluation of beliefs to see if they are justified because religious beliefs that make claims about reality are tested. Hey, _I_ make critical judgments about my own beliefs; that’s how I’ve arrived at the set I have. And **you** have no right to judge the validity of my beliefs. Any more than I do yours. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/35 "2006-12-22T21:36:04Z")
[Quote=JThunder] Is the scientific method the only valid means by which beliefs should be acquired? > [@Ammonius Saccus](#): > > If they are beliefs about objective phenomenon [/quote] Do you believe that ALL of your beliefs about objective phenomenon were arrived at through the scientific method? ---
**Author:** ![According\_to\_Pliny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@According\_to\_Pliny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/According_to_Pliny)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2006, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/36 "2006-12-28T00:16:41Z")
For smart people, I have no clue why they chose religion. For dumb people, they are influenced by someone. For those in the middle, I think it can be a refuge from facts, which they always seem to be on the wrong side of. When C students can only recall half of a science class, they are cheered by news reports of past theories that have been revised by new data. Instead of concluding that new inquiry brings new knowledge, they conclude that all past and present knowledge is unsupported. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203/37 "2006-12-29T16:31:59Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] And can you give a rational evidence based defense - using the scientific method - of your decision to get blind drunk? If not, why did you do it? [/QUOTE] The devil made me do it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-a-place-to-throw-it-all-away/385203.md?page=1)