[QUOTE=norinew]
A Baha’i perspective (just in case you were wondering):
God is sanctified beyond anything we can do. Nothing we can do can harm or help God; nothing we can do will make Him happy or unhappy. The Holy laws aren’t about God, they’re about what’s good for us, and will further our spiritual development. God does not love us because of what we do or don’t do. He loves us because He’s God; we don’t have to do anything to earn that love. That’s called grace.
As far as burning in hell, we believe that hell is a state of being in the afterlife, and being separated from God. We cannot attain the presence of God until we are spiritually perfect. That perfection cannot be achieved in this world, but we can begin the process here, and finish it in the next world. The Holy laws are about beginning that process.
[/QUOTE] norinew, are you yourself Baha’i? I was quite interested in Baha’i for a while when I was in high school, despite my Missouri Synod Lutheran upbringing. I now live 7 blocks from the local Baha’i center. If you started an "Ask the Baha’i thread, I’d be very interested and would have several (respectful) questions.
[QUOTE=zagloba] norinew, are you yourself Baha’i? I was quite interested in Baha’i for a while when I was in high school, despite my Missouri Synod Lutheran upbringing. I now live 7 blocks from the local Baha’i center. If you started an "Ask the Baha’i thread, I’d be very interested and would have several (respectful) questions.
[/QUOTE]
I am a Baha’i. I did a thread maybe a year ago. Doubt you could ask the questions now, as it would be considered a “zombie” thread. If you started a new thread (maybe on various religions in general), I’d be happy to pop in and participate. Or you could email me (addy’s in the profile). If you choose the email route, just be sure to put SDMB or Baha’i in the subject line, so I know it’s not spam.
[QUOTE=gonzomax] http://dingo.care2.com/cards/flash/5409/galaxy.swf
The galaxy song by Monty Python tells of a huge and expanding universe. Enormous beyond imagination. Huge explosions. stars being born radiation flying about. If a god exists. Why would it want men on this tiny little flyspeck of a planet to fall down on their knees and worship it.
[/quote]
I have thought alot about this especially when I went to church. I concluded that if I were God I would not care if people worshipped me so therefore I do not worship. Although I do think on occasion that existance is pretty cool and I am glad to experience it.
Thats just human nature. People think they are important and special in most aspects of their lives. For example: I would say the old lady at the grocery store on Saturday arguing with the clerk over her $.20 that she didn’t get because the coupon had expired thought she was pretty important and special and needed to see a manager RIGHT NOW.
That’s your opinion. Though I will guess that we and insects are probably having a lot more sex than God is.
I have thought about this mutiple times as well. I personally do not think God cares about eating meat on a Friday and so I eat meat on fridays. I believe that God does not care about swearing. Calling someone a jerk, fucktard or asshole all have the exact same meaning. It’s just that, to the nanny’s, two are “no-no” words and one is fine for the preacher to use when talking to his/her congregation.
I figured this out when I was a kid and I wanted the last ice-cream all to myself instead of sharing it with my brother.
[QUOTE=Voyager]
So why did God create us? For amusement? To increase the amount of love in the universe? To get off on worship? No matter what the billion or so people praying to any particular god do, hundreds of billions across the universe can do better. If humanity is positive in any way, more worlds with other humanities will be more positive.
[/quote]
You are surely old enough by now to know that just because something is good doesn’t mean that more of it is better. I like having a cat, but hundreds of billions of cats would pose certain problems. Many good things are good because of their uniqueness.
And as for your question about whether the Fall occurred on each of several billion worlds, it’s based on the premise that there are several billion planets inhabited by intelligent beings. Since there’s zero evidence to support the claim that there are several billion such planets (or any such planet besides Earth), your premise is flawed and thus the question is meaningless.
[QUOTE=norinew]
A Baha’i perspective (just in case you were wondering):
God is sanctified beyond anything we can do. Nothing we can do can harm or help God; nothing we can do will make Him happy or unhappy. The Holy laws aren’t about God, they’re about what’s good for us, and will further our spiritual development. God does not love us because of what we do or don’t do. He loves us because He’s God; we don’t have to do anything to earn that love. That’s called grace.
As far as burning in hell, we believe that hell is a state of being in the afterlife, and being separated from God. We cannot attain the presence of God until we are spiritually perfect. That perfection cannot be achieved in this world, but we can begin the process here, and finish it in the next world. The Holy laws are about beginning that process.
Having said that, I will say this: if the only reason you asked the question was so that you could scoff at anyone who tries to answer, please don’t trouble yourself on my behalf.
[/QUOTE]
I have studied a lot of different religions, but Baha’i I don’t know much about other than it exists. Thanks for posting here, I see little difference in what you say and spiritualism. I am always interested in comparing religions and finding there are much the same at their core beliefs. I would like to know more about your Holy Laws if it is appropriate here or maybe in a comparative thread.
[QUOTE=ITR champion]
You are surely old enough by now to know that just because something is good doesn’t mean that more of it is better. I like having a cat, but hundreds of billions of cats would pose certain problems. Many good things are good because of their uniqueness.
[/quote]
Which leads to the famous theological question: can God make so many cats that even he will get pissed off. We’re not talking cats or physical things - we’re talking love and prayers. Are you seriously contending that God can create too many beings who love him?
.
We’re not talking science here, but religion. if God created life, and if more life who love god is better, why wouldn’t God create life on a billion planets? Are we such superior prayers that any other race would be insignificant? That’s ego again.
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar]
What specifically did you find smug about kanicbird’s reply?
[/QUOTE]
While this wasn’t addressed to me, the common claim by the beleivers that God has made himself known to us is quite smug, since it implies that we unbelievers are either stupid or willfully denying him.
And before you start with the rhetoric that atheists are saying the same thing - yes, yes we are. The difference is, by all the evidence we’re right; all the religious side has is the naked assertion that God exists. And at least in my case, I’ve never suger coated my opinion of the other side; I do consider the religious to be fools, and say so. I don’t go on about how I * love * the religious and feel sorry for them and so on.
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar]
What specifically did you find smug about kanicbird’s reply?
[/QUOTE]
All of it. It’s actually quite absurd to write that “The reason is God has made Himself known to us. That is all that is required!” as a factual statement when it’s anything but.
Again, any semblance of that post to a factual response is simply in said poster’s mind. It says absolutely nothing other than what, again, he/she perceives in their mind with nary a hint of empirical evidence. IOW, it ignores realty as such and finds its only basis, as I’ve already pointed-out, in religious faith.
So, to those us of that lack said flights of fancy, it is not just smug, but rather condescending as well. As in us heathens are unable to see or comprehend what’s right there in front (or on top, whatever) due to some faulty DNA – or lack of a sixth sense.
B.S. I can create all sorts of ‘gods’ in less time that it took me to write this post – difference being that I recognize there’ll be no evidence for any of them. Much less say that they have been made “known to us.”
There aren’t enough of these to go around: :rolleyes:*
*And that despite the fact that I usually hate using emoticons when involved in a ‘serious’ conversation.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I have studied a lot of different religions, but Baha’i I don’t know much about other than it exists. Thanks for posting here, I see little difference in what you say and spiritualism. I am always interested in comparing religions and finding there are much the same at their core beliefs. I would like to know more about your Holy Laws if it is appropriate here or maybe in a comparative thread.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t want to hijack gonzomax’s thread. If you wish to start another thread, asking questions, or if you wish to email me off the boards, that would be fine. I’d be more than happy to answer any questions you may have.
I will go this far: the laws are pretty basic, pretty simple. Be nice to people; don’t steal; don’t murder; pray daily (there are specific obligatory prayers); go on pilgrimage if you can; get an education; make up your own mind about God and religion; fast annually; bathe daily; wear clean clothes. There are some that get pretty obscure, like our burial laws (buried facing the East; casket made of hard wood; wrapped in a 9-layer shroud made of silk or cotton; wear a Baha’i burial ring).
Above all, number one is unity. Unity of mankind, unity of God, equality between the races, religions and genders of the world. That was what appealed to me most.
But as I said, I don’t want to hijack the thread. Feel free to start one, and I will happily participate, or email me and I will willingly answer. www.bahai.org is a good basic website.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
While this wasn’t addressed to me, the common claim by the beleivers that God has made himself known to us is quite smug, since it implies that we unbelievers are either stupid or willfully denying him.
[/quote]
I didn’t get that. Your mileage obviously varies.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
And before you start with the rhetoric that atheists are saying the same thing - yes, yes we are. The difference is, by all the evidence we’re right; all the religious side has is the naked assertion that God exists.
[/quote]
You have arguments against the assertations of the religious that you find more compelling. That is not evidence.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
And at least in my case, I’ve never suger coated my opinion of the other side; I do consider the religious to be fools, and say so. I don’t go on about how I * love * the religious and feel sorry for them and so on.
[/quote]
You don’t say.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
If that makes me “smug”, too bad; grow some skin.
[/QUOTE]
If you are truly bothered by what kanicbird posted, then perhaps it is you who should grow some skin.
All in all, I consider it very telling that you posted this in a thread about ego.
[QUOTE=RedFury]
All of it. It’s actually quite absurd to write that “The reason is God has made Himself known to us. That is all that is required!” as a factual statement when it’s anything but.
[/quote]
It is a factual statement, albeit within kanicbird’s belief system.
I’m normally in disagreement with kanicbird on pretty much every issue, including this one, but I don’t see any smugness or anything like that in her post then. It’s a simple statement of belief.
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar]
It is a factual statement, albeit within kanicbird’s belief system.
[/QUOTE]
So, according to that logic, you can be as nutty as a fruitcake ans still make “factual statements.”
Awesome rational. We can then conclude that Charles Mason and his followers, for instance, were factually correct. According to them of course. Thus no reason to have laws anyway – we can all simply plead “well I killed them all, but factually I right to do so…according too my belief system that is.” Fuck evidence, fuck reality, since it’s all about what you believe. Hell, right now I’m going to believe The Laws Of Gravity don’t exist and Superman wasn’t a comic but rather another super-mighty god who chose to place his (red) underwear on top of his pants.
I’ll skip the emoticons this time. Really not necessary with what you’ve written.
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I’m normally in disagreement with kanicbird on pretty much every issue, including this one, but I don’t see any smugness or anything like that in her post then. It’s a simple statement of belief.
[/QUOTE]
And so was the belief in Zeus, thunderbolts from an angry god, a flat earth and the sun revolving around the earth, only to name a few. Still going strong, are they?
I think that what is clear is that belief is an acceptance of programming. The middle east is full of Muslims. They are raised to be Muslims and they become Muslims. They will tell you of their great faith and how they communicate with the only true god. Hindus ,Jews and other faiths dominate the landscape where they live. It is because they were raised that way from a very early age, before they are mature enough to understand what they are being taught.
Faith is probably an acceptance and trust of training. Religions rely on getting children young.
If people are not raised in a faith ,what do they become. Religions strive to get more members, but once you become an adult it is harder to be convinced.
You must understand that in America it is rare to be raised an atheist. So atheists throw off their training once they become mature. That is why they seem to be snarky. We all started like you and changed when we became adults. We are very familiar with your arguments. we were raised with them. They don’t work any longer because we have decided the system is based on info that is unbelievable and wrong.
FWIW, I was raised Catholic, but there were too many things about it that didn’t make sense to me. I wasn’t Baha’i until I was 35. It was a very deliberate thing on my part, not an inculcation. In fact, one cannot officially become Baha’i until 15 years of age. We consider that to be the “age of maturity”. Certainly, we can raise our kids as Baha’is (and with my husbands agreement, I have done so). However, my middle daughter, now 16, didn’t feel comfortable making her Declaration at 15. She said she hadn’t decided yet. I said “fine”, and did not bug her about it. She decided just about two weeks ago to Declare.
Of course, given this statement, it’s possible that your theory for all of this is that I’ve never matured.
[QUOTE=RedFury]
And so was the belief in Zeus, thunderbolts from an angry god, a flat earth and the sun revolving around the earth, only to name a few. Still going strong, are they?
[/QUOTE]
If you want to make this a general “Religion! Boooo!” argument, please note I already said I don’t agree with kanicbird. All i’m saying is that it didn’t appear smug or similar to me.
[QUOTE=RedFury]
So, according to that logic, you can be as nutty as a fruitcake ans still make “factual statements.”
Awesome rational. We can then conclude that Charles Mason and his followers, for instance, were factually correct. According to them of course. Thus no reason to have laws anyway – we can all simply plead “well I killed them all, but factually I right to do so…according too my belief system that is.” Fuck evidence, fuck reality, since it’s all about what you believe. Hell, right now I’m going to believe The Laws Of Gravity don’t exist and Superman wasn’t a comic but rather another super-mighty god who chose to place his (red) underwear on top of his pants.
[/QUOTE]
I think it’s pretty obvious that kanicbird’s was made in the context of her belief system. If you’re going to demand scientific evidence every time someone makes a statement of faith, then we’re never going to make any progress (not like that’s ever stopped a Great Debate before).
