Religion as child abuse...

Marc, Labdude - I’m sorry. I am not, after all, an American (though I currently live in this country) and I fear I am guilty of trying to impose my cultural values upon you. The idea that children are our greatest national treasure, and protecting them is our noblest purpose, as a society, is apparently in opposition to your deeply held beliefs. Perhaps you can even call it un-American. The U.S. is, apperently, a nation where ideals are more important than people, and where abstracts are more important than lives. Again, my apologies.

This thread has been very enlightening. If I had ever doubted that I should go home before my wife and I have kids, I no longer do so.

Pthalis, the reason we still have any freedom left is fanatics like the ACLU (which I support) who rabidly fight against any thing they see as a loss of freedom.
Many posters have noted that the existence of God, Shiva, etc can’t be proven. Freedom of religion is a tricky thing for just that reason. My freedom of speech has rational, legal limits. Any violation of these limits can be tested in court. Religion (keep in mind that I say this as a believer) is irrational and bizzare to start with. Applying common sense to it doesn’t work well.
We have a national Christmas tree. Many courts display copies of the ten commandments. Mandatory prayer in public schools was not long ago. I ammend my initial statement. Perhaps our place on the slope is kept by a battle between people seeking to abolish any religious freedom and people seeking to force the religion on everyone.

Actually, the 10% estimate is extraordinarily high. The majority of studies cite a much lower figure – ranging from 0.5 to 3%, based on the stats that I recall.

Cecil himself hinted that this estimate was inflated. Check out

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000421.html

Besides, Kinsey didn’t actually say that 10% of the population is homosexual. What he actually said that 10% of white males are more or less exclusively homosexual (a 5 on a scale from 1 to 6; 6 being exclusively homosexual) for at least three years between the ages of 15 and 65, and 4% are exclusively homosexual throughout life after the onset of adolescence. Additionally, Kinsey’s figures were based in part on prison inmate studies, and his methodology has been seriously questioned. (There are various web sites which list objections to his methodology.)

Incidentally, Cecil’s article argues that the incidence is more like 3-6%, but that doesn’t quite jibe with the stats that I remember. I could be wrong, of course, but so far I haven’t found a source for that range of values.

First of all, I want to thank everyone for their responses to me. As I noted, I believe in medical care (indeed, as a Catholic I’m even opposed to removing food and water from people in a persistent vegetative state). I also believe in rights, and I’m wary of the “won’t someone please think of the CHILDREN?” argument. I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree on the rationality of my faith and the milits of government interference in the faith lives of Americans.

However, in the interests of fighting ignorance, does anyone have any numbers, even estimates, of the number of children who die every year because their parents eschew Western medical treatment in favor of faith-based treatment? I suppose for fairness we should also compare that to the nunber of children who die of illness every year while receiving the best medical care Western science has to offer.

It all seems a bit of a tempest in a teapot to me.

Lot’s of places have made laws to cover this. In Ontario, where I reside, we have both common law, such as Malette v Schulman (1987), and even more recent statute law, the Health Care Consent Act (1996), both of which do not permit a doctor to act against the express intent of a competent person holding the right to make or withold consent. There is a somewhat complex hierarchy of circumstances and deemed decision makers, but what it eventually comes down to is that a Jehovah parent has the right to withold treatment of his child provided that the child does not disagree.

Yet another example of the horror of relgion. Sickening, if you ask me.

Where it gets interesting is in deciding what constitutes a valid religion. Religious cults that are into amputation, sacrifice or suicide have not received any protection in Ontario. Similarly, mainstream religious practices from other areas of the world (e.g. female genital mutilation) have not recived any protection. Children with parents whose faith includes these religious practices have a great deal of protection from their parents under the law. On the other hand, more locally popular religions are granted great latitude. Jehovahs can let their children die with impunity. No one blinks twice at Judeo-Christian male genital mutilation. Why is one religion offered legal protection, whereas another religion not?

This is where I find the entire concept of “Freedom of Religion” laughable. There is no such absolute. Actions are tolerated or protected as much as society wishes to permit such toleration or protection. If your religion is close enough to other religions in a society, or if there are enough of you in a society, then you will gain protection. If not, then you and your religion are out of luck. Some religions straddle the line, sometimes being protected, and sometimes being attacked (e.g. Jehovahs in Quebec or Sikhs in British Columbia). Since there is no such thing as true “Freedom of Religion”, cutting into any locally accepted religion’s practices lead people of other religions to often worry about a slippery slope. Sometimes it gets sort of wierd, where people of different religions which do not permit their children to die sill support the “right” of Jehovahs to let their children die. It comes down to a great many people, far beyond the limiten number of Jehovahs, being willing to protect abstract belief systems, and being rightfully concerned about the slippery slope argument which puts forth that a reduction of priviledge to one religion could lead to a reduction of privledge of another religion. So many people are religious in one form or another that you can say that society is willing to protect generally accepted belief systems at tremendous cost.

Unfortunately, it is often real children who pay the price for the society’s acceptance and protection various religions. In Ontario we see it where Jehovahs have let children die through want of basic medical intervention, where pedophiliac priests and violently abusive sisters have identified but then been protected by the Roman Catholic Church, and where the religious right continues to push brainwashing on children in the school system in the form of public prayers. Like I say, religion is sickening, and sadly one of the least empowered groups, children, often pay the highest price.

Hey, Jube, you’re beginning to sound like another famous Southern politician, one whom I have the misfortune to have representing me. :wink:

Kinsey has been the target of a great deal of abuse, and he did in fact have some significant psychological problems. But his statistical work was skewed only by the fact that he had to work with a volunteer population. He used the best statistical techniques of the time.

Much of his work has been attacked by right-wing groups with axes to grind. It is clear you have been exposed to their debunking of him by your quotation of the prisoner anecdote. He did indeed investigate the sexuality of prisoners. After he published Sexual Behavior in the Adult Male. My own experience with trying to refute or validate this is predominantly anecdotal, but bears out two of his major figures: about one in seven adolescent males had a predominantly homosexual period (cf. Kinsey’s 13.7%) and slightly over a third of them had had sex to orgasm with another male (cf. Kinsey’s 37%). For the record, most studies indicate lesbians appear to have a much lower proportional rate of incidence than gay men (~7%).

If anyone has links to actual numbers with some validation of the methodology used, I’d welcome seeing them.

So I’d suggest Eve’s round-number figures are on target (13+% males, 7% females rounds to ~10%). And we have not addressed her basic question – what is to be done with gay teens? Are they to be condemned because a particular religious group, or even a majority of religious groups, finds their sexual orientation as sinful? Or what?

Yeah, we’re all a bunch of bastards who don’t give a rat’s ass about children. We’d rather see them all dying in the streets then violate any of our so called “abstract” ideals.

You, apparantly, feel that children are paramount and all efforts must be made to save them even at the expense of other people. I’m glad you won’t be here when your child is born and hopefully you won’t be coming back.

Marc

You see? We can agree on something!

that so many Dopers seem to find the “freedom of religion” argument that permits this to be valid.

Why? Because since when does my freedom to do anything include my freedom to hurt another person? Especially another person who is a minor, and therefore unable to give consent to anything, under most laws of this country?

Forget the religion. Just look at the parent/child relationship. Are there any other circumstances in which we blandly support parents making decisions which are fatal for children? I am not a big “save the children” type…I’m more of a “dont’ let one person own and destroy another” type.

This is actually about, for me, what I feel are ridiculous rights given to parents. And this one just strikes me as the most ridiculous of all. Many of you have given good examples that show the irrationality of this, and I haven’t seen them really addressed.

Susan Smith, for instance. By the logic that drives this, she should be a free woman. Her children were hers to do with as she pleased. Oh, wait…it wasn’t religion that drove her to it. What if it was?

How in hell does the PARENTS right to “freedom” of religion trump their CHILDREN’S right to GO ON LIVING?

That’s the part no one has really addressed… it is the PARENT’S freedom of religion. The CHILDREN didn’t get to make a choice in the matter. The government took a child away from her parents last year for getting too fat, judging that the parents weren’t taking proper care of their child in allowing it. But they are going to let a different set of parents watch their child die of gangrene after suffering an injury? Die of diabetes? Measles? Strep throat? Appendicitis?

Religious freedom is insane in this. And parental rights are even more so. Children are not the possessions of their parents, they are separate human beings with the same basic human rights that we all have, rights that need to be protected by the state if they aren’t by the parents. (And as for the abortion argument that someone tossed into the mix: fetuses aren’t persons under our laws, and therefore have no rights. We all deeply disagree about this. But we all agree completely that once a person is born, they are a person and they have rights.)
stoid

I believe it is despicable for anyone to take intellectually defenceless children and fill their minds with cultist dogma of whatever flavour. I don’t see how you can do this to a child you love.

I don’t see anything loving about instilling in a child’s mind beliefs which are inherently irrational and self-contradictory, or throwbacks from medieval superstitions, or arbitrary doctrines which explicitly include prejudice and bigotry (e.g. “gay people who physically express their love for each other are de facto acting against the will of God” or “people of other faiths, like Islam, are WRONG and we are RIGHT” or “only WE can get into heaven, everyone else cannot”.)

I think to love a child is to say “You have a mind, the most wonderful thing in the universe. By learning how to think and reason well, you can begin to make sense of your world, of yourself, of the people you share your life with, and your fulfillment in life”. Filling that mind with concocted silliness, such as transubstantiation, or angels appearing with golden plaques, is just cruel.

It is not good enough to say “They can choose for themselves when they grow older.” It’s not that simple. Constant brainwashing throughout formative years may not so easily be overcome.

In our society, we all agree that to abuse a child’s body is wrong. When we catch people who do such things, we exact severe punishments - even if it is the parent who commits the act. I do not understand why we don’t feel the same way about abusing a child’s mind. I believe this can be just as damaging, just as hurtful.

Freedom of religious expression? Okay. When you are an adult, and you can choose what you want to believe. Freedom to abuse a child’s mind? No. I disagree with that.

**

You don’t expect adults to raise their children with the values they themselves adhere to? That seems rather odd. What values are they suppose ot raise their children with?

**

If you have children how do you plan on raising them? Will you not incorporate your set of values into raising them?

**

Well all of us don’t agree that it is abuse to raise a child with religious beliefs.

So let’s stop teaching children any religious values.

Marc

I rather doubt it, especially since the disproportionate use of prison inmates should have been an immediate red flag. Besides, the point remains – all the studies after Kinsey consistently report much lower figures.

Now, some do argue that 10% is accurate if we “round up” the numbers – but is it really fair to round 6 or 7% up to 10%? That amounts to nearly a 150% increase. Why not report the numbers as they stand? (Besides which, 6% is at the upper range of the other studies’ results.)

Even Cecil says that the 10% figure is inflated, whatever the actual range may be. Personally, I’m siding with Cecil on this. :slight_smile:

Ptahlis

That’s silly. I have the right to let someone else’s child die. Therefore, allowing the child’s parents to let the child die is not a “special right”; it’s a right that every other person has.

“Undeniable”? That’s a rather conceited attitude.

What is really at issue here is whether it is the duty of every parent to accept the judgement of the medical community above their own. I really don’t think that legally requiring people to accept someone’s conclusions is exactly consistent with the scientific method.

Excellent suggestion, I agree wholeheartedly! I’ve long felt that it was grossly unfair to indoctrinate children into a belief system before they had any means of assessing its value, so I’m all for stopping such practices right away.

stoid

And I believe it absolutely is, most particularly when the judgment of the medical community is “Your child will die”.

Parents have no special judgment. The act of having sex and following through with the biological consequences does not confer any special wisdom upon a person. In matters of life and death, I believe it is the prudent thing, and should be the legally required thing, to accept the judgment of those who are specially trained to make such judgments and act accordingly.
stoid

Shockingly enough, I find many of your arguments compelling, Stoidela. I have a major problem with a parent “letting” their kid die, for religious reasons, or whatever. These kids are individuals, with brains, and souls. Let them get to the age of consent, and they can decide if they want to die for their religious beliefs.

However, I think it is ludicrous to expect parents to not raise their kids with religious beliefs, if they have them. Every parent raises their kids with their own beliefs. If I ever were to have kids, they’d probably be fed vegetarian meals. Should I bring meat into the house, and start feeding my kids meat, so they are not “brainwashed” to be vegetarians? I do not feel morally right about eating meat - would I be “abusing” my kids if I raised them with that belief too? Should I not expose my kids to my political beliefs, and my other beliefs and preferences? Would you refrain from exposing your kids to your political or your philisophical views? I seriously doubt it.

Also, the medical profession: I don’t have a lot of faith in it. I don’t believe inaction is a viable alternative to traditional medicine, but what about herbal medicine? I grew up in a crackpot family (no - really!:D) and my mom treated us with lots of herbs and crackpot stuff. We never had life-or-death ailments, but still, she did not go the “traditional” route, and I think she did just fine with us. The herbal cures seemed to work. Was she “abusing” us because she did not adhere to “traditional” medicine?

I do not think that traditional medicine is the ultimate wisdom, or ultimate source of cure. Hell, my sister is legally blind because of a medicine a doctor prescribed for her, so pardon me if I don’t worship at the altar of traditional medicine. (I don’t think it’s worthless - I just am not in total awe of it.)

If you say that you don’t treat it as a panacea, then why do you act as if it is so? Stoidela, they are refusing just one treatment out of many. It is not the only one, as there are alternatives to using blood. That there is not more effort to accomodate the alternatives, and get FDA approval for, blood substitutes that are available is the fault of the doctors, the governments and the courts, never the parents. And stop this child abuse accusation. Witnesses are helping to push forward blood-substtute technology as much as doctors do. You even favor continuing with this technology, Phtalis. How can it be child abuse when they are frantically trying to find more ideal alternatives to using blood that the Western doctors even advocate?

**

You don’t have guardianship or authority over anyone else’s children, nor can you personally deny somebody else’s kid medical care. Only a parent or legal guardian currently has been granted the legal right to deny a child lifesaving care for religious reasons, so it certainly is a “special right.”

Conceited? Yeah, it certainly is conceited to think that medical science could be responsible for the huge plunge in infant mortality, the survival rate of trauma victims, the eradication or near-eradication of diseases like polio, smallpox, bubonic plague, or the survivability of once-fatal cancers or burst appendixes. Thank you for pointing out my shameful conceit!

Conistent with the scientific method? Is this a research project we are talking about? What “really is at issue here” is whether or not we allow a superstition primacy over established scientific probability. What is at issue is whether an abstract right to practice one’s religion is more important than the life of an innocent.

Then you’ll have to pass laws forbidding parents teaching their children anything.

Marc

Surely as a mother, you would care far more about whether your child lives or dies than you would care about what the first amendment or the Bible or the Torah or the Koran says. Wouldn’t you?

Yes I am an athieist, and too many young kids die in this country every year because parents are accorded the right of making decisions regarding life-saving treatment. Do I really believe that the 8 year old who refuses a blood tranfusion really understands the magnitude of the decision they are making - no, I don’t.

I apologise to all the Christians on this board for whom I have respect, but if you care more about your “god” (who you accept on faith, not because you can actually prove he or she exists) than you care about your children, who are here and now and right in your face, then I think that you need to re-think your values.

Possibly in America you DO have the right to deny your children medical treatment based on the constitution. You don’t have the legal right to do it where I live, and I’m pretty happy that I don’t have that right.

Every adult in this world has the right to make informed decisions about the medical treatment they accept - IMHO, none of us have the right to deny our own children or anyone else’s children medical care on the basis of our religious beliefs. If you’re prepared to die for God, that is your choice as an adult - I don’t believe that when you enforce those decisions on your children they are truly making informed choices.

And I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that people consider their first amendment rights more important than the well-being of their children. But then again I also can’t understand the insistence on the right to bear arms.