# Religion demonstrably bad for America/society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400 "2009-01-22T03:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/1 "2009-01-22T03:08:22Z")
I am presenting this out of curiosity. Please make no assumptions as to my beliefs on the subject one way or the other. From [the Journal of Religion and Society](http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html), entitled “Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies”: > [@](#): > > In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a “shining city on the hill” to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health. Youth suicide is an exception to the general trend because there is not a significant relationship between it and religious or secular factors. No democracy is known to have combined strong religiosity and popular denial of evolution with high rates of societal health. Higher rates of non-theism and acceptance of human evolution usually correlate with lower rates of dysfunction, and the least theistic nations are usually the least dysfunctional… > > [snip] > > …Indeed, the data examined in this study demonstrates that only the more secular, pro-evolution democracies have, for the first time in history, come closest to achieving practical “cultures of life” that feature low rates of lethal crime, juvenile-adult mortality, sex related dysfunction, and even abortion. The least theistic secular developed democracies such as Japan, France, and Scandinavia have been most successful in these regards. The non-religious, pro-evolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator. The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted… In replying to this post, keep in mind that this is not a discussion as to whether or not people who subscribe to one religion or another are idiots or not. It is not a discussion about whether or not there is “something up there.” It is not a discussion about whether or not we evolved from dolphins. etc. etc. I know all those other subject seem so exciting, but please try to stay on subject. Whenever one asks questions about religion on SDMB, it’s often only a matter of time before they’re derailed. This is a discussion about the data in the study. Does this correlation between religious piety and societal strife exist? (Please provide as much statistical evidence for or against as possible) If so, why? For instance, if Jesus said love thy neighbor, why do so many people not appear to be treating their fellow man too well in a country where so many people claim to be practicing Christians? What other evidence is relevant that is missing from the statistical analysis? Is there any statistical evidence that could disprove or put into question the possibility of a correlation between the religious devotion of the people and crime? ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/2 "2009-01-22T04:00:22Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > What other evidence is relevant that is missing from the statistical analysis? Is there any statistical evidence that could disprove or put into question the possibility of a correlation between the religious devotion of the people and crime? I’m guessing accounting for socioeconomic and educational levels of the religious versus atheists would be a good start. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/3 "2009-01-22T04:05:48Z")
It would be difficult to link causation for a lot of these. Point in fact, I doubt there is any beyond the basic link between income and religiosity, and most of what you are seeing is income and American law. The only comparison of those listed that might be viable is versus Japan, but Japan is still living in the 50s, has a healthier diet, and is liable to make up data. America has a few issues that no other country has: 1. Something like 20% of our current populace are the descendants of people who were fully uneducated and had no legal right to own anything ~150 years ago. They were still being held back in all educational and social organizations until 40 or 50 years ago. While we have certainly made some impressive leaps in the last 50 years, that’s still a rather heavy albatross to get off from our neck. 2. The US is more libertarian than other countries. Libertarians aren’t concerned with a lot of the statistics that the left holds up as gods. 3. There’s no guarantee that the current lead in those statistics that other countries have will be maintainable in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/4 "2009-01-22T04:15:07Z")
I’m not the least bit surprised. You can find the same correlation within the United States. Not sure why this is the case. My only theory is that man has an inate moral sense and that any external limits/influence from religion just make things worse. Kinda like messing with the free market. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/5 "2009-01-22T04:19:58Z")
“STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion” These are probably related to religion, I’ll admit. ---
**Author:** ![Catchy\_Wins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Catchy\_Wins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catchy_Wins)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/6 "2009-01-22T08:35:16Z")
I can only speak from personal experience here, which is a sample of one (or possibly two if you count my ex christian ex wife) but my mental health has improved significantly in the 3 years since I shed my christian world view. Decisions are much easier to make, and the actions of other people in my life make more sense when interpreted based on rationalism. Obviously YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/7 "2009-01-22T10:20:32Z")
Well, all the study really proves is correlation, which makes the factors that were controlled for – i.e. their sufficiency to exclude other possible causation – the most viable route of attack against it. In total, however, I don’t see at least certain aspects as counterintuitive – for instance, the promise of an eternal, paradisiac life does place implicitly less value on the life in the here and now than the absence of such a promise does. I’ll have to do a more thorough reading of the study, though. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/8 "2009-01-22T10:42:36Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Well, all the study really proves is correlation, which makes the factors that were controlled for – i.e. their sufficiency to exclude other possible causation – the most viable route of attack against it. Looks like they’ve got that covered, though: > [@](#): > > it is not the purpose of this initial study to definitively demonstrate a causal link between religion and social conditions So I don’t really see many lines of attack other than attacking the data itself; however, the conclusions one draws from the studies’ results are a more or less personal matter. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/9 "2009-01-22T10:56:30Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It would be difficult to link causation for a lot of these. Point in fact, I doubt there is any beyond the basic link between income and religiosity, and most of what you are seeing is income and American law. Sorry for yet another post in a row (shoulda read the whole thing before posting), but I think the study actually refutes this correlation, seeing how the US is, despite being the most religious developed democracy, also the wealthiest in a per-capita sense. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/10 "2009-01-22T12:54:50Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Sorry for yet another post in a row (shoulda read the whole thing before posting), but I think the study actually refutes this correlation, seeing how the US is, despite being the most religious developed democracy, also the wealthiest in a per-capita sense. Wealthiest per capita **on average**. If you look at the United States income equality as compared to others: [List of countries by income inequality - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality) (I sorted by the CIA Gini Index) You’ll notice that the US is down between Kenya and Uganda and such places. Sweden, Denmark, and France on the other hand top the chart out. Japan is somewhere mid-between, maybe leaning towards the US. Sweden and Denmark, for instance, have something like an 80% tax rate (once you add them all up, the US is more like 40%: > **[List of countries by tax rates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world)** > > Comparing tax rates across countries is difficult and somewhat subjective, as tax laws in most countries are extremely complex and the tax burden falls differently on different groups in each country and sub-national unit. The list focuses on the main types of taxes: corporate tax (excluding dividend taxes), individual income tax, capital gains tax, wealth tax (excluding property tax), property tax, inheritance tax and sales tax (incl. VAT and GST). Personal income tax includes all applicable ta... An 80% hand in the pot is some pretty major wealth redistribution. Now I suspect that the US would be more in line with Japan once we deal with getting the racial history solved. I don’t think that the US’s income disparity is as much due to our libertarian stance. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/11 "2009-01-22T13:30:41Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Wealthiest per capita **on average**. If you look at the United States income equality as compared to others: > … The point is, wealth as measured by GDP is not well corrolated, amongst developed countries, with crime rates and other social problems. Whereas religious practice appears to be. And your suggestion of income inequality being significant isn’t borne out by your choice of example: Japan’s income inequality leans towards the US’, when compared to other developed countries. And yet, it’s homicide rate is totally at the other end of the spectrum. This corrolates well with the difference between the religious practice in those two countries. I agree with others though who’ve pointed out that corrolation does not equal causation. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/12 "2009-01-22T14:41:21Z")
Why are people so quick to infer that religion is what causes crime? Even if we grant the correlation described above, one could just as easily argue that the dangers of crime make people more likely to turn to God, especially in times of hardship or crisis. Consider how the churches were flooded with people right after the 9/11 attacks, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/13 "2009-01-22T15:09:59Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > And your suggestion of income inequality being significant isn’t borne out by your choice of example: Japan’s income inequality leans towards the US’, when compared to other developed countries. And yet, it’s homicide rate is totally at the other end of the spectrum. This corrolates well with the difference between the religious practice in those two countries. Japan has a 90% confession rate. This is proof that torture works to prevent crime, not that religion causes crime. Also, like I said, I wouldn’t necessarily trust that the data Japan releases on such statistics is necessarily true. Which rather illustrates how hard it is to correlate countries by sheer statistics, unless you really have statistics for everything and do some _serious_ data mining. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/14 "2009-01-22T15:14:29Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Why are people so quick to infer that religion is what causes crime? So far, everybody, including the authors of the study, has been careful to say that such causation can _not_ be inferred from the results. However, what we _can_ say is that religion apparently doesn’t lead to strong benefits for a society. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/15 "2009-01-22T15:58:03Z")
We had a thread in GQ a couple weeks back that was about some of the benefits of religion. A [recent NYT article](http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/30/science/30tier.html&OQ=_rQ3D1&OP=312de705Q2FQ25oXrQ25AQ3A16lQ3AQ3AiWQ25WjjIQ25Q24WQ25VjQ2561ZXx1XQ25VjiZXlQ2F5i@G) said: “Researchers around the world have repeatedly found that devoutly religious people tend to do better in school, live longer, have more satisfying marriages and be generally happier.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/16 "2009-01-22T16:16:58Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > 1. The US is more libertarian than other countries. Libertarians aren’t concerned with a lot of the statistics that the left holds up as gods. Not even “low rates of lethal crime, juvenile-adult mortality, sex related dysfunction, and even abortion”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/17 "2009-01-22T16:18:23Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Japan has a 90% confession rate. This is proof that torture works to prevent crime . . . The Japanese police use torture? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/18 "2009-01-22T16:42:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Japanese police use torture? Cite? Some info from the Economist: “Article 34 of the Japanese Constitution guarantees the right to counsel and habeas corpus, but is systematically ignored. Police and prosecutors can detain suspects for 23 days. Interrogations are relentless and sometimes abusive. Prosecutors are reluctant to bring cases to trial without a confession. Indeed, it is considered a first step in a criminal’s rehabilitation. When asked about the country’s 99% conviction rate, Japan’s justice minister, Kunio Hatoyama, corrected your correspondent to state that it was actually 99.9%, because prosecutors only present cases that are watertight.” I can’t read their article “Confess and be done with it”, but [this page’s mini-description](http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-159042225.html) gives a 95% confession rate. This seems to be pretty decent evidence that torture of some sort is taking place. I doubt that asking, “What would your mother think of you?”, is as effective a method of causing confessions as Japanese TV shows depict. I’ve also related a tale once of my trip to a Japanese jail to help translate for a British man. This man told me that when he first stepped into the jail section of the police station that he could see them beating a man, but they’d shuffled off out of sight immediately. I didn’t personally see this occur. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/19 "2009-01-22T17:58:45Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Japan has a 90% confession rate. This is proof that torture works to prevent crime, not that religion causes crime. This argument doesn’t work at all. First of all, it would be proof of a corrolation, not causation. But in fact, it’s not even that, because it is a solitary example. You’d have to show a similar relationship in other countries. Then you have the fact that a high confession rate is not the same thing as a low crime rate. And finally, by what logic would a corrolation between torture and low crime rates rule out a cause relationship between religion and crime? If living in a city is corrolated with lung cancer, that doesn’t mean cigarettes are off the hook. But again, all the study is saying is that there appears to be a corrolation. No-one has said religion causes crime. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/20 "2009-01-22T18:10:54Z")
[Human rights in Japan:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_japan) > [@](#): > > The Japanese criminal justice system has been criticized on several grounds. Japanese police have the right to detain suspects for a long period. Although torture is rarely reported, this put suspects under psychological pressure to confess. They are detained and interrogated by police for periods which critics regard as unnecessary, though interrogation often induces confession which is later corroborated. In several cases, the courts have acknowledged that confessions were forced and ordered prisoners released. The Japanese courts have had conviction rates that exceeded 99% in the past (but that number has been curtailed in recent history due to changes in Japanese law). In common law countries which practice trial by jury, this is seen as indication that defendants are not receiving a fair trial. In civil law countries, where a magistrate decides the verdict, it is common because both the defence and the prosecutor can reliably predict the outcome of the trial. Japan also practices the death penalty which is objected to by the U.N., several prominent NGO’s and the European Union (see Capital punishment in Japan). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400.md?page=2)