# Religion demonstrably bad for America/society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400 "2009-01-22T03:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/21 "2009-01-22T18:19:07Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > So far, everybody, including the authors of the study, has been careful to say that such causation can _not_ be inferred from the results. > > However, what we _can_ say is that religion apparently doesn’t lead to strong benefits for a society. If you do that, then you’re inferring causation or a lack thereof. No such claim can be logically inferred, which is why I offered a scenario in which it’s the incidence of crime that leads to increased religiosity. Furthermore, even if we could conclude that religion leads to increased crime, it does not logically follow that religion “doesn’t lead to [any] strong benefits for a society.” To do that, you’d have to expand the study far beyond its current scope. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/22 "2009-01-22T18:26:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Human rights in Japan:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_japan) Torture/duress wouldn’t be an effective method if it wasn’t used on the right people. Police generally know when a bad guy is a bad guy. Going through the work of proving it is just red tape. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/23 "2009-01-22T18:36:10Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > What other evidence is relevant that is missing from the statistical analysis? Is there any statistical evidence that could disprove or put into question the possibility of a correlation between the religious devotion of the people and crime? I suspect that the correlation is actually between level of education and crime. I believe that in a society like the USA were being religious is the norm, irreligious people are for a significant part people who tend to think more by themselves and are more educated (as opposed to being irreligious because mom was or because they never really thought much about it). And being more educated, they’re less likely to end up as criminals, for instance. I suspect that if the %age of believers in a jail and in the general population were compared in a country like mine where being irreligious is quite widespread, there wouldn’t be as much of a difference as in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/24 "2009-01-22T19:38:08Z")
I’m not sure that all crime and religion are related. We could find that some capital crimes may have been religiously influenced (Susan Smith, the lady that sacrificed her kid, the crusades…), but little ones like petty theft? Embezzlement from a large corporation? Doubtful. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/25 "2009-01-22T20:22:21Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > This is a discussion about the data in the study. Does this correlation between religious piety and societal strife exist? (Please provide as much statistical evidence for or against as possible) If so, why? if Jesus said love thy neighbor, why do so many people not appear to be treating their fellow man too well in a country where so many peotians? As the authors readily admit, the United States is much more strongly religious than any other country in the survey. That means that they really have only one data point for strongly religious countries, and the results are heavily influenced by that one data point. On many of those graphs it’s clear that if you removed the United States then the remaining data would be essentially flat, that is to say the rate of murder/suicide/gonorrhea would have no real correlation with religiosity. As for the case of the United States, it depends on what data you choose to study. The USA trails in some categories, but leads in other categories. Take a survey of religiosity compared to median income, property crime, college educations, or any number of other things and you’d find the United States looks more positive. > [@](#): > > if Jesus said love thy neighbor, why do so many people not appear to be treating their fellow man too well in a country where so many claim to be practicing Christians? Who says they don’t? If out of every 100,000 there are 6 who commit murder and 5 who commit suicide in a given year, then there are 999,989 who don’t commit murder or suicide. (Even assuming that no one commits two murders or a murder-suicide.) ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/26 "2009-01-22T21:08:05Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > If you do that, then you’re inferring causation or a lack thereof. That’s not the same thing, however. If the hypothesis is that high religiosity leads to increased social well-being, the absence of a correlation between high religiosity and increased social well-being (defined here along the axes the study measured, for convenience) is evidence against the hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/27 "2009-01-22T21:17:40Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > That’s not the same thing, however. If the hypothesis is that high religiosity leads to increased social well-being, the absence of a correlation between high religiosity and increased social well-being (defined here along the axes the study measured, for convenience) is evidence against the hypothesis. First of all, that only holds true if the societies evaluated are at all comparable. And second, saying that this study is “evidence against the hypothesis” falls far short of establshing that “religion doesn’t appear to lead to strong benefits for a society.” At best, it would merely offer a data point, and it’s usually reckless to draw conclusions from a single data point. Furthermore, there is a great deal more to “increased social well-being” than just the crime rate. Ergo, even if we grant that religion and crime are strongly correlated, it still takes a HUGE leap to conclude that religion offers no strong benefits to society. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/28 "2009-01-22T21:50:56Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > First of all, that only holds true if the societies evaluated are at all comparable. And second, saying that this study is “evidence against the hypothesis” falls far short of establshing that “religion doesn’t appear to lead to strong benefits for a society.” At best, it would merely offer a data point, and it’s usually reckless to draw conclusions from a single data point. When there’s a claim, and that claim is investigated, and that investigation doesn’t turn up any evidence for the claim, that doesn’t mean the claim appears to be false? > [@](#): > > Furthermore, there is a great deal more to “increased social well-being” than just the crime rate. Ergo, even if we grant that religion and crime are strongly correlated, it still takes a HUGE leap to conclude that religion offers no strong benefits to society. Why are you hawking on about the crime rate anyway? Such a thing wasn’t even investigated; the factors correlated were relative number of homicides, youth suicides, infant mortality, life expectancy, gonorrhea infection rate, syphilis infection rate, teen pregnancy abortions, and teen pregnancies. In all categories but the youth suicides, a positive correlation to religion was found. (Also, belief in evolution and religiosity was correlated, but a negative correlation there surprises probably nobody, and while I personally would say that a high acceptance of evolution is indicative of a better off society, I don’t even want to bring that onto the table right now.) While these obviously aren’t all factors that determine social well-being, it’s a few more than just the ‘crime rate’. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/29 "2009-01-23T06:00:06Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Torture/duress wouldn’t be an effective method if it wasn’t used on the right people. Police generally know when a bad guy is a bad guy. Going through the work of proving it is just red tape. That rustling sound you hear is the turning over in the grave of all the brave men who died to defend the American Constitition. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/30 "2009-01-23T06:46:11Z")
Not sure how the teen pregnancy/abortion stats in this study reveal much. I think that teens of all denominations are beyond curious, yet a religious, rule-stricken society with a high school (public or private) can expect anything less than curiosity of sexual rigor. Incidentally, I am currently dealing with something religious at work (video) called “Consequences of Opinion”. Funny how that title reflects a lot of opinion, 'specially on this board! 🙂 Another quick aside, I once had a boss who told me to never hire anyone from Liberty U. I guess entertainment actually has its limits too, and I agreed with my boss on this. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/31 "2009-01-23T06:59:04Z")
Apologies, had to log off before I finished my last post, but education, limited to its region on the most part, isn’t that part of the cause on religion contributing to a downfall of awareness that MAY cause increased teen pregnancies, and other broad data somewhat collected by this study? I have read the OP and the study link, but even though I am not a thesist, believer, what have you, I still think the data presented is BEYOND broad. This study would have to be more focused to convince me, but how I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/32 "2009-01-23T09:13:26Z")
TO BE CLEAR: When I said, “I agreed with my boss on this,” I meant I agreed with my boss that “entertainment has its limits too,” NOT agreeing with singling out one school’s grads as unequal. Sorry for the phrasing. (!) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/33 "2009-01-23T14:45:56Z")
**Locrian** , the box you type into to write a post will autowrap your text. You don’t need to word wrap yourself. It looks like you’re writing a poem or something. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/34 "2009-01-23T15:07:39Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > That’s not the same thing, however. If the hypothesis is that high religiosity leads to increased social well-being, the absence of a correlation between high religiosity and increased social well-being (defined here along the axes the study measured, for convenience) is evidence against the hypothesis. Another obvious problem with the survey is that they measure “religiosity” simply by polling the current inhabitants. Looking at the list of countries, it’s obvious that all of them except Japan have a long Christian heritage. Hence many of their institutions are built on Christian principles, and a general Christian worldview has seeped into their people’s thinking even if they aren’t praying several times per week or taking the bible literally. Throughout most of Europe, there are still numerous schools, hospitals, clinics, and other charities run by churches, and they’re still having an effect on society. Someone should do a survey that includes these factors among their measure of “religiosity”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/35 "2009-01-23T16:02:37Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > **Locrian** , the box you type into to write a post will autowrap your text. You don’t need to word wrap yourself. > > It looks like you’re writing a poem or something. Well, Japan has been discussed. Maybe he’s trying for a haiku. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/36 "2009-01-24T20:47:31Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Looking at the list of countries, it’s obvious that all of them except Japan have a long Christian heritage. Hence many of their institutions are built on Christian principles, and a general Christian worldview has seeped into their people’s thinking even if they aren’t praying several times per week or taking the bible literally. > … > Someone should do a survey that includes these factors among their measure of “religiosity”. So…virtually all the countries in the survey come from a similar, strong Christian heritage. And you want to correct for that factor. Why bother if they are almost all the same in that respect? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/37 "2009-01-24T22:52:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, Japan has been discussed. Maybe he’s trying for a haiku. Our society Imagine no religion Less chance of murder? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/38 "2009-01-24T23:41:19Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > So…virtually all the countries in the survey come from a similar, strong Christian heritage. And you want to correct for that factor. Why bother if they are almost all the same in that respect? With all due respect, you’re missing the point. The study in question discussed crime rates, but it did not attempt to cover the other effects of religion. America’s oldest and most venerated universities, for example started out as Bible-teaching schools, for example. (Harvard and Yale were originally Puritan, and Princeton has Presbyterian roots.) A great many hospitals were also founded as Christian outreaches, which is why so many of them are named after St. Luke the Physician. That’s why you can’t simply look at this study and proclaim that religion has been bad for society. The study doesn’t even come close to establishing a correlatino between religion and any overall detriment to society, much less any causative relationship. Apparently though, this doesn’t stop people from eagerly saying “Hmmmm… Seems like religion might be damaging overall to society. Okay, so correlation isn’t causation, but still…” ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/39 "2009-01-25T00:17:16Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > America’s oldest and most venerated universities, for example started out as Bible-teaching schools, for example. (Harvard and Yale were originally Puritan, and Princeton has Presbyterian roots.) Saying Harvard started as a “bible-teaching school” is a stretch. This is from their site: > [@](#): > > Harvard College was established in 1636 by vote of the Great and General Court of the Massachusetts Bay Colony and was named for its first benefactor, John Harvard of Charlestown, a young minister who, upon his death in 1638, left his library and half his estate to the new institution. Harvard’s first scholarship fund was created in 1643 with a gift from Ann Radcliffe, Lady Mowlson. > > During its early years, the College offered a classic academic course based on the English university model but consistent with the prevailing Puritan philosophy of the first colonists. Although many of its early graduates became ministers in Puritan congregations throughout New England, the College was never formally affiliated with a specific religious denomination. … The 1708 election of John Leverett, the first president who was not also a clergyman, marked a turning of the College toward intellectual independence from Puritanism. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400/40 "2009-01-25T01:15:00Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > With all due respect, you’re missing the point. At the risk of sounding like I learned my debating skills in a playground: I think it is _you_ who has missed the point. (Checkmate!) The study in question measured various social statistics versus _current levels_ of religious practice, and found a corrolation. Now, as pointed out by **ITR champion** , all but one of the countries in the study has come from a strong Christian heritage. Therefore, just strike out the exception of Japan, and it doesn’t affect the survey to any great degree whether a Christian tradition is bad or good for a society. > [@](#): > > That’s why you can’t simply look at this study and proclaim that religion has been bad for society. Has anyone said that? > [@](#): > > The study doesn’t even come close to establishing a correlatino between religion and any overall detriment to society, much less any causative relationship. Look, if I believed that religion was good for society then I’d probably look at this study and think “corrolation is not causation; more people are drawn to god in hard times”, or I’d question the data, or whether the study was biased (as implied perhaps by the tone of the paper). But arguing against the conclusion that there’s a corrolation, when that’s clearly what the data shows, smacks of denial. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-demonstrably-bad-for-america-society/482400.md?page=3)