# Religion has given us nothing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474 "2010-06-08T23:39:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/61 "2010-06-09T13:15:24Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Religion-bashers like to act as though science and religion are inherently at odds, but that’s a shallow and overly simplistic (even childish) notion at best. My experience has been more that those with religious beliefs seem to think science is in conflict with their beliefs. I started a GQ thread on this just a week or so ago. A friend of mine, despite having an interest in science and technology, buys into the “debate” about evolution and thinks this type of science is “evil”. This only seems to be the case if one takes an extremely narrow and literal interpretation of the bible. But interpretations of the bible aside, the scientists I have known (who were often religious) are just baffled at the idea that some people think science is “at odds” with religious belief. Science uses instruments - extensions of human senses - to make observations. When they observe that the sky is blue, that may occasionally conflict with someone’s ultra-literal reading of their holy book. Well that’s too bad because the sky still appears to be blue, and they did not go out to make that observation with the intention of bringing down someone’s dogma. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/62 "2010-06-09T13:55:56Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > That is a deeply silly site on so many levels. It handwaves away the signficant developments in science and mathematics by non-Christian countries such as Persia, India and China which were later adopted and furthered by Europeans, ignores those incidences of Christian opposition to scientific developments (evolution, anyone?) and plays up the few demonstrable instances of genuine Christian promotion of experimentation. No, it does not, which would have been self-evident if you had read the article closely. It does NOT deny the contributions of non-Christian nations. What it says is that modern science had its ORIGINS in Christian thought, which explains why it emerged in Christian cultures as opposed to non-Christian ones. > [@](#): > > I am not denying the importance of the Augustinian \*oeuvre \*but it seems to me that you are (or at least the person at your link is) attributing scientific advancements to specific religious beliefs which owe much more to socio-economic and cultural changes. Again, completely incorrect. The article in question does NOT say that we should attribute scientific advancements to religion. What it does say is that science had its origins in Christian thought, which is an entirely different proposition. > [@](#): > > And I don’t know what to make of this, from your link: Yes, it’s becoming quite obvious that you don’t. > [@](#): > > Really? _Really?_ > Religion and science frequently _are_ at odds in many ways. … Again, a severe misrepresentation of what I’ve said. Religion and science have been at odds, but they are not INHERENTLY at odds, as I have emphasized previously. Your entire response betrays the position of someone who is adamantly convinced that science and religion are inharmonious, regardless of what the actual facts may be. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/63 "2010-06-09T14:02:16Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > My experience has been more that those with religious beliefs seem to think science is in conflict with their beliefs. There are indeed people like that. To be more precise though, they believe that _certain scientific beliefs_ are at odds with certain religious beliefs. The more sophisticated people in these groups – the ones who tend to expound on their beliefs more precisely, as opposed to your typical layperson – believe that in situations like this, scientists have arrived at the wrong consensus, not that science itself is inherently wrong. Moreover, as I have had to emphasize repeatedly, this objection does not demonstrate that science and religion are _inherently_ at odds. Nor does it disprove the notion, amply demonstrated by history, that science had its origins in Christian thought. “But wait!” certain people here are bound to object (as one person tacitly did). “There are plenty of scientists who don’t believe in God. How can you possibly think that only Christians can make a contribution to science?” That is not the claim in question, though. Of course, non-Christians and non-theists can make stupendous contributions to science. The point is that historically, science had its origins in a Christian milieu. That is, in fact, why people such as [Sir Isaac Newton](http://www.adherents.com/people/pn/Isaac_Newton.html) pursued science with a passion – because in science, he saw the marvels and majesty of his God. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/64 "2010-06-09T14:12:24Z")
I can accept that Science _may_ have origins in a Christian milieu, but it is precisely _because_ those seeking answers could not find them in that milieu that other more scientific methods were developed. Claiming that Religion has value because some religionists developed scientific methods to find answers they were denied before is the equivalent of saying Astrology has value because the more intelligent astrologers found that astronomy gave them the answers _they_ were seeking. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/65 "2010-06-09T14:48:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I can accept that Science _may_ have origins in a Christian milieu, but it is precisely _because_ those seeking answers could not find them in that milieu that other more scientific methods were developed. Not according to historian Stanley Jaki. Quite the contrary; it was belief in God that motivated Christians in Western Europe to explore the majesties of the physical universe. Your answer is the kind of response that one would expect from someone who starts with a premise in mind (e.g. religion is dumb and science is superior) and strives to dream up ways to explain away any evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/66 "2010-06-09T14:52:14Z")
It might have been belief in God that motivated them, but it was Science, not Religion, that provided the tools that lead to the answers they sought. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/67 "2010-06-09T14:58:51Z")
As I said before, your argument applies just as well for Astrology. Should we respect modern Astronomy because it inspired early astrologers to expand their horizons and become astronomers? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/68 "2010-06-09T15:06:35Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > No, it does not, which would have been self-evident if you had read the article closely. It does NOT deny the contributions of non-Christian nations. What it says is that modern science had its ORIGINS in Christian thought, which explains why it emerged in Christian cultures as opposed to non-Christian ones. Yes, but it offers fallacious reasoning for this assertion: > [@](#): > > Modern experimental science was rendered possible, Jaki has shown, as a result of the Christian philosophical atmosphere of the Middle Ages. Although a talent for science was certainly present in the ancient world (for example in the design and construction of the Egyptian pyramids), nevertheless the philosophical and psychological climate was hostile to a self-sustaining scientific process. Thus science suffered still-births in the cultures of ancient China, India, Egypt and Babylonia. It also failed to come to fruition among the Maya, Incas and Aztecs of the Americas. Even though ancient Greece came closer to achieving a continuous scientific enterprise than any other ancient culture, science was not born there either. Science did not come to birth among the medieval Muslim heirs to Aristotle. > > …The psychological climate of such ancient cultures, with their belief that the universe was infinite and time an endless repetition of historical cycles, was often either hopelessness or complacency (hardly what is needed to spur and sustain scientific progress); and in either case there was a failure to arrive at a belief in the existence of God the Creator and of creation itself as therefore rational and intelligible. Thus their inability to produce a self-sustaining scientific enterprise. In short, this statement (by Haffner interpreting Jaki) says “We can see that science had its origins in Christian thought because Christian thought is required for science.” A nice bit of begging the question. > [@](#): > > Again, completely incorrect. The article in question does NOT say that we should attribute scientific advancements to religion. What it does say is that science had its origins in Christian thought, which is an entirely different proposition. And still incorrect. > [@](#): > > Yes, it’s becoming quite obvious that you don’t. I’m not convinced you do either. By the argument it presents, we could equally say that Christians have a predisposition to become pantheists because several prominent Enlightenment thinkers were Deists. > [@](#): > > Again, a severe misrepresentation of what I’ve said. Religion and science have been at odds, but they are not INHERENTLY at odds, as I have emphasized previously. Your entire response betrays the position of someone who is adamantly convinced that science and religion are inharmonious, regardless of what the actual facts may be. Yes, that’s exactly what I meant when I said > [@](#): > > Science and religion are not necessarily mutually exclusive. There have certainly been many, many scientists who were (and are) people of faith and have in one way or another reconciled that faith with the scientific method. Oh wait, it’s the exact opposite. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/69 "2010-06-09T15:08:32Z")
Religion is a unifying force- if only to unify US against THEM. As such, it’s been a big influence on the initial formation of societies. I certainly think we could do without religion at this point in our development… but I do believe it had its uses when we were first starting to form civilizations. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/70 "2010-06-09T15:08:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As I said before, your argument applies just as well for Astrology. Should we respect modern Astronomy because it inspired early astrologers to expand their horizons and become astronomers? Too late to edit: Change “modern Astronomy” to “modern Astrology”. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/71 "2010-06-09T15:09:35Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > What difference does it make if it is ‘wrong’ or ‘inconvenient’? We would still place appropriate sanctions on murderers. > > And anyway, in the absence of religion, we would reach the conclusion the same way that the founders and followers of religion ‘know’ that killing is wrong / not wrong. It’s not as if Moses received the ten commandments from God on tablets of stone. Some other prophet (possibly also called Moses) worked it out for himself. > > Christians or Jews or Muslims or Buddhists have not been consistent in deciding if their religions are for or against killing anyway. It’s a reasonable conclusion to infer that societies decide if they are against killing first, and then create the religious justification for it second. > > And what Bryan said. “Wrong” would make it a fundamental characteristic of the action, “inconvenient” would be subjective. It is not evident that “inconvenient” is justification for (severe) punishment, it’s arbitrary. The problem is that we have no control groups that developed social rules in the complete absence of religion/spirituality. “They would’ve worked it out” is a belief, not a scientifically provable thesis. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/72 "2010-06-09T15:10:51Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > No, they didn’t unite they divided; they creates groups of “us” and “them” that would not exist without religion. This statement (in common with everything else you have posted on the topic of religion) is pretty obviously worthless crap, since officially atheist societies are just as likely to divide into “us” vs. “them” as any others. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/73 "2010-06-09T15:12:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Change “modern Astronomy” to “modern Astrology”. This is a radical notion. It would look good on a bumper sticker. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/74 "2010-06-09T15:12:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This statement (in common with everything else you have posted on the topic of religion) is pretty obviously worthless crap, since officially atheist societies are just as likely to divide into “us” vs. “them” as any others. > > Regards, > Shodan Atheist societies exist _because religionists have already done the dividing._ ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/75 "2010-06-09T15:22:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As I said before, your argument applies just as well for Astrology. Should we respect modern Astronomy because it inspired early astrologers to expand their horizons and become astronomers? And if I had said anything about “respect,” your objection might have some merit. You are shifting the goalposts, though. Rather, I was addressing the specific claim that “religion has giving us nothing.” I was also affirming what **Zoe** said about religion and its contributions to science. NOWHERE did I say that this was, in and of itself, sufficient grounds to prostrate one’s self before religion. (I myself an a devout believer, but not for this reason alone.) Unfortunately, certain people here are unable to approach these discussions in a focused manner, instead choosing to take potshots against religion whenever they can. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/76 "2010-06-09T15:24:13Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > I can’t think of a single idea that religion has given us that we didn’t know already. So what’s the point? Religion gives us rules, regulations, trying to make order out of life, which is what many people want and seek. It’s supplying a need. Some of it taps into spirituality, it allows many a taste of the spiritual. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/77 "2010-06-09T15:29:12Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Oh wait, it’s the exact opposite. :rolleyes: You are correct, **Gyrate**. In my haste, I missed that statement of yours, and for that I apologize. I am big enough to admit such errors. With all due respect though, I jumped the gun because of your statement that “Religion and science frequently are at odds in many ways” – something which I never contested. Such an objection truly has no place unless you thought that I the existence of any possible conflict between the two, and I said no such thing whatsoever. My points about your earlier posting remain, though. Neither Jaki nor I claimed that non-Christian societies have not contributed massively to science. We did not deny “the signficant developments in science and mathematics by non-Christian countries” nor did we ignore “incidences of Christian opposition to scientific developments.” None of that is relevant to Jaki’s amply documented claim that science owed its origins to the Christian milieu of Western Europe. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/78 "2010-06-09T15:29:57Z")
Religion gave me a bit of a headache, trying to find words of divine inspiration in The Bible, The Koran, or anywhere else I looked.\* Go on, tell me I needed to read them in their original language, and be able to understand them in the context in which they were written! - Anyone able to offer some likely candidate passages? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/79 "2010-06-09T15:32:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It might have been belief in God that motivated them, but it was Science, not Religion, that provided the tools that lead to the answers they sought. Another irrelevant objection. If somebody here had claimed that science was useless, or that we should replace religion with science, your objection would be helpful and profound. Nobody said such a thing, though. Rather, we have been talking about the contributions of religion to science, not their relative merits. As I said, some people here are simply unable to discuss these matters without taking petty potshots against religion – even if it means erecting an army of strawmen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474/80 "2010-06-09T15:37:51Z")
The contribution of Religion to Science? Religion provided questions that Religion couldn’t answer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-given-us-nothing/542474.md?page=5)