# Religion has Never Bettered the World
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 5, 2009, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393 "2009-08-05T05:25:57Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/21 "2009-08-05T15:32:08Z")
> [@Malacandra](#):
>
> And a monk named Mendel was responsible for some interesting work on the subject of dominant versus recessive genes.
Then of course there is the SDMB’s favorite monk, William of Ockham.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/22 "2009-08-05T15:34:44Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> It’s because of this that I’m not eager to dismiss the historical significance of religion, but better tools for understanding the universe have come along in the last few centuries and it’s time to gently but firmly ease religion into the background.
The fundamental mistake here is that people are valuing only critical thought. I don’t see a lot of atheist communities a la churches forming. When you get rid of religion what do you replace the church with as the center of community life, because honestly, I do not see very many secular analogues.
Even the secular playgroups I take my daughter to from time to time are hosted at the Lutheran church.
Science and learning are not everything.
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### Author:  [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/23 "2009-08-05T15:41:52Z")
**"Religion Has Never Bettered The World."**
In a short essay on NPR, one man said that being a Jew makes him a cheerful, optimistic man. He said Jews are instructed to thank God upon waking, for letting them see another glorious day. He finished by saying he answers everyone’s “How ya doing?” by saying, **Great! Never Better!** 😉
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/24 "2009-08-05T15:42:34Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> The fundamental mistake here is that people are valuing only critical thought. I don’t see a lot of atheist communities a la churches forming. When you get rid of religion what do you replace the church with as the center of community life, because honestly, I do not see very many secular analogues.
Well, there are fan clubs-a-plenty dedicated to sports teams and whatnot, as well as political parties, trade unions… any number of voluntary secular associations.
The fundamental mistake I see in your statement is the assumption that atheists would naturally group together simply because they’re atheists, and because they’re not there must be some fundamental flaw with atheism. Atheists have no more reason to form a club than do, for example, people who are indifferent to strawberry ice cream.
Anyway, I’ve no problem with religion organizations continuing to exist, but their roles in the fields of politics and science, while once significant, has been supplanted by more efficient structures. Thus we don’t _need_ religion any more, but if you _want_ it, be my guest. Just keep a leash on it.
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### Author:  [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/25 "2009-08-05T15:52:04Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> The fundamental mistake here is that people are valuing only critical thought. I don’t see a lot of atheist communities a la churches forming. When you get rid of religion what do you replace the church with as the center of community life, because honestly, I do not see very many secular analogues.
The Social Democrat party in Denmark have – or rather had – many social settings, from party events, vacations, schools, scout groups for kids, tours, etc. Much more comprehensive than any church here ever had. The same were true in places like Nazi Germany and Soviet Union. It is quite possible to build alternative to church based organisations.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/26 "2009-08-05T15:57:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> Well, there are fan clubs-a-plenty dedicated to sports teams and whatnot, as well as political parties, trade unions… any number of voluntary secular associations.
Those do not fill the same role as a church.
> [@](#):
>
> The fundamental mistake I see in your statement is the assumption that atheists would naturally group together simply because they’re atheists, and because they’re not there must be some fundamental flaw with atheism. Atheists have no more reason to form a club than do, for example, people who are indifferent to strawberry ice cream.
No, I am not assuming that at all. I don’t know where you get that from.
What _I am_ saying is that you are claiming we need to get rid of something without providing a suitable replacement.
> [@](#):
>
> Anyway, I’ve no problem with religion organizations continuing to exist, but their roles in the fields of politics and science, while once significant, has been supplanted by more efficient structures. Thus we don’t _need_ religion any more, but if you _want_ it, be my guest. Just keep a leash on it.
_Shrugs_, their role in politics will never be supplanted as long as we have a Democracy. Anything that people organize a community around is a political entity.
> [@](#):
>
> The Social Democrat party in Denmark have – or rather had – many social settings, from party events, vacations, schools, scout groups for kids, tours, etc. Much more comprehensive than any church here ever had. The same were true in places like Nazi Germany and Soviet Union. It is quite possible to build alternative to church based organisations.
There is no analog to that in the US that I am aware of. I never said it was impossible, I just said that it’s not happening with any great frequency.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/27 "2009-08-05T16:09:04Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> Those do not fill the same role as a church.
If you say so.
> [@](#):
>
> No, I am not assuming that at all. I don’t know where you get that from.
From your observation that you “don’t see a lot of atheist communities a la churches forming”. Why _would_ they? Atheists getting together to _not_ talk about God, or something?
> [@](#):
>
> What _I am_ saying is that you are claiming we need to get rid of something without providing a suitable replacement.
I’m not talking about outlawing religion or burning down churches and whatnot, just firmly drawing lines that religion cannot sneak across: No, you _can’t_ require a reference to “God” in an official oath. No, you _can’t_ force Intelligent Design into a high-school biology class. No, you _can’t_ blockade an abortion clinic without repercussions. What we need to get rid of is religion’s power, not religion per se.
> [@](#):
>
> _Shrugs_, their role in politics will never be supplanted as long as we have a Democracy. Anything that people organize a community around is a political entity.
Sure, but when it comes time to write laws, there is a constitutional authority that trumps all manner of gods.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/28 "2009-08-05T16:12:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> If you say so.
You’d have to be woefully ignorant of what services a church provides to think that a sports fanclub fills the same niche.
> [@](#):
>
> From your observation that you “don’t see a lot of atheist communities a la churches forming”. Why _would_ they? Atheists getting together to _not_ talk about God, or something?
Yea, you really do not understand what I am saying at all do you? I’m not talking about what atheists ‘should’ do. So I won’t really give much commentary to this straw man hijack.
> [@](#):
>
> I’m not talking about outlawing religion or burning down churches and whatnot, just firmly drawing lines that religion cannot sneak across: No, you _can’t_ require a reference to “God” in an official oath. No, you _can’t_ force Intelligent Design into a high-school biology class. No, you _can’t_ blockade an abortion clinic without repercussions. What we need to get rid of is religion’s power, not religion per se.
Heh, do you even understand how Democracy works? If a lot of people are religious, and they vote as a bloc then they have power. You can’t get rid of the power without getting rid of the religion in a Democracy.
> [@](#):
>
> Sure, but when it comes time to write laws, there is a constitutional authority that trumps all manner of gods.
Which in this country would never have happened if of course a lot of religious folk didn’t agree it was a swell idea.
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### Author:  [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/29 "2009-08-05T16:54:57Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> Which in this country would never have happened if of course a lot of religious folk didn’t agree it was a swell idea.
I’ve long suspected that a lot of religious folk only think that seperation of church and state is a swell idea only because they fear some _other_ church being in charge. Not out of valuing of religious freedom in and of itself.
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### Author:  [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/30 "2009-08-05T17:20:53Z")
The Holy Order of Krispy Creme once tried to batter the world, but then the market fell out.
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/31 "2009-08-05T17:49:51Z")
Is “Religion has never bettered the world” a falsifiable proposition? What kind of evidence would you take as an example of religion bettering the world?
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### Author:  [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/32 "2009-08-05T18:18:19Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#):
>
> Neither have message boards.
>
> So what?
Message boards also don’t make people intolerant of one another, nor do they hold back the progression of science.
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### Author:  [@first\_time\_caller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/first_time_caller)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/33 "2009-08-05T18:36:12Z")
> [@BrandonR](#):
>
> Message boards also don’t make people intolerant of one another, nor do they hold back the progression of science.
I’m pretty sure anti-vaccination message boards hold back the progress of science?
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### Author:  [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/34 "2009-08-05T18:47:25Z")
> [@BrandonR](#):
>
> Message boards also don’t make people intolerant of one another, nor do they hold back the progression of science.
Care to defend the Stormfront board?
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/35 "2009-08-05T18:51:47Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#):
>
> Is “Religion has never bettered the world” a falsifiable proposition? What kind of evidence would you take as an example of religion bettering the world?
As an adamantly anti-religious atheist, I’d say that’s an obviously false statement. “Never” means “not for any period of time”, which means that you only need to find one moment of time when religion bettered the world. Religion encourages a man to contribute to a charity. He does so when he otherwise wouldn’t. The world is bettered. Poof! Disproven.
The only way to defend it is to play word games. “Oh, I meant bettering the _whole_ world, at once, total sum of all religious effects in aggregate, over a time span of at least a day” or some other thing which most people wouldn’t read into the original statement.
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### Author:  [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/36 "2009-08-05T19:10:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> And religious people (as defined above) have happier and more successful lives pretty much across the board - they divorce at lower rates, report higher levels of happiness subjectively, abuse drugs and alcohol less often, volunteer in their communities more often, etc. (I’ve cited these enough in the past not to bother this time.)
>
> Regards,
> shodan
Often enough, but perhaps not [factually enough](http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm).
> [@](#):
>
> The slogan: “The family that prays together, stays together” is well known. There has been much anecdotal evidence that has led to “unsubstantiated claims that the divorce rate for Christians who attended church regularly, pray together or who meet other conditions is only 1 or 2 percent”. 8 Emphasis ours]. Dr. Tom Ellis, chairman of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Council on the Family said that for “…born-again Christian couples who marry…in the church after having received premarital counseling…and attend church regularly and pray daily together…” experience only 1 divorce out of nearly 39,000 marriages – or 0.00256 percent. 9
>
> A recent study by the Barna Research Group throws extreme doubt on these estimates. Barna released the results of their poll about divorce on 1999-DEC-21. 1 They had interviewed 3,854 adults from the 48 contiguous states. The margin of error is ±2 percentage points. The survey found:
> 11% of the adult population is currently divorced.
> 25% of adults have had at least one divorce during their lifetime.
> Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience.
That aside, I do think that religion has contributed greatly to society as a whole. I think the argument lies in whether or not those contributions were positive.
Religion provided a framework for government in European countries for centuries. Various religions have provided for the education of many poor people who otherwise would receive none. Priests/shamans etc. acted as the primary ministers of the sick and wounded during plagues and wars. We have countless works of art and architecture inspired by religion.
Now it could be argued that those same religions which provided a governmental framework also eroded that government from within, that the education provided was nothing more than a front for conversion and that if not for the religion a lot of those wars would not have happened, but to assert that religion has contributed nothing throughout history is just flat out wrong.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/37 "2009-08-05T21:05:29Z")
> [@The\_Lurker\_Above](#):
>
> I’ve long suspected that a lot of religious folk only think that seperation of church and state is a swell idea only because they fear some _other_ church being in charge. Not out of valuing of religious freedom in and of itself.
Just like many atheists would love to see toleration of any religion at all gotten rid of. _shrugs_ Very few people actually believe in religious freedom for its own sake.
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/38 "2009-08-05T21:45:05Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> The daily life of your 99th percentile human from the time of the earliest civilizations and up until the 19th century was one of rigorous, daily toil. If you were in the elite, then your life was better, but still the quality of life was largely consistent from the nobles of ancient Egypt and the Monarchs of 13th century Europe.
>
> There was some minor advancement in construction techniques, some advancement in metallurgy, etc. But even still, by and large, the quality life was largely consistent.
I don’t agree with this at all. First of all, you need to define “quality of life”. Like most people, I don’t define quality of life entirely in material terms. Even if I did, however, your claim is untrue. The average person in, say, Rhode Island in 1799, had much improved material circumstances compared to a serf in the Dark Ages or a nomadic tribesman from ancient times. He or she had a larger house and farm property, a more consistent food supply, better clothes, and better tools. If we include non-physical improvements, we’d also see freedom, democracy, legal rights, educations, and so forth. Bluntly, there’s no way you could defend the claim that “quality of life was largely consistent” from the dawn of humanity to the start of the 19th century.
> [@](#):
>
> But was there really any people who were less inclined to war? Was there any group who didn’t look down on some people as more or less great in value than what they were born as?
Assuming that I’m parsing this correctly, the answer is a definite ‘yes’. Take the Franciscans, for one obvious example. They were completely opposed to war for religious reasons, were they not?
> [@](#):
>
> Very rarely was a woman considered to be anything more than the property of her father, and subsequently of her husband.
Many nuns would have been quite surprised to hear this.
In all honesty, this claim is just wrong. In Ancient Rome, during Pagan times, the law was “Patria Potestas”, which probably has a Wikipedia article if you want to look it up, but it basically meant that the father could do what he wished with his children, up to and including killing them. Thanks to Christianity, the law was changed, so that (among other things) murder was a crime. If you agree that the Christian approach was better, then apparently religion has bettered the world.
> [@](#):
>
> Everyone believed in magic and curses. Medicinal and healing techniques were at best placebos and at worst actively harmful. The average person could not read, nor likely perform basic arithmetic.
>
> History was written by the winners, and speaking out publicly against the government would see one killed or imprisoned.
>
> We’re talking something like 4000 years here, and yes there is no noticeable change for any of it beyond a move from bronze swords to iron.
This could all be debunked, but I don’t have the time right now.
> [@](#):
>
> Now you might say that without religion, we would surely have been worse. But that idea doesn’t hold up. Confucius was a philosopher not a saint nor prophet, and his teachings are more or less consistent with the teachings of Christianity. Many religions didn’t preach any large moral system, instead being principally concerned with the correct rituals to perform so as to please the gods. These groups were neither better nor worse than any other group of humans. They were all just human. The average man toiled, the nobles fought wars and collected taxes, the clergy/shaman/monks did their own thing.
Now are you honestly saying that there was no significant difference between any places before the 19th century? No place was better or worse than any other? If you were going to be sent back 250 years, you really think that going to a civilized places such as Italy, England, or the colonies would be no better than going to Mongolia or Australia? Are you really willing to defend that idea?
The rest of your post I won’t tackle now. **Lonesome Polecat** has already written a good response to the idea that the last couple centuries were a time of wonderful moral improvement. The real problem that we’re having here is that you seem to believe a version of history that is, to speak bluntly, false. For example, your statement that “everybody was religious at that time”. It just isn’t true. Not at all.
Your main explanation for religion, as stated in another thread, is childhood indoctrination. Apparently you think that religious parents somehow manage everything that their children are exposed to in order to lead them into religious belief. Well, if you think that’s possible, can your mind stretch to consider the possibility that maybe your upbringing has managed to expose you to certain false “facts” while sheltering you from various true ones?
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/39 "2009-08-05T22:04:43Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> Yes, all those Christian missionaries bringing food to starving African children. They aren’t doing anything to better the world in any way. :rolleyes:
Feeding people who live on land that cannot support them only creates more people who live on land that cannot support them. A net increase of suffering. If I really wanted to help out starving Africans (and I’d love to, but I don’t have the means), I’d move them somewhere else. Giving them food isn’t doing anyone any good.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-has-never-bettered-the-world/505393/40 "2009-08-05T22:06:36Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> > [@Shodan](#):
> >
> > Well, there’s that thing about abolishing slavery in the West, which was largely due to religious groups like the Quakers and Mennonites, and triggered by the Great Awakening.
>
> Everyone was religious at the time, so saying that it was the religious fighting against slavery is rather meaningless. It was the religious fighting for slavery. And amazingly the movement didn’t gain traction until economic alternatives started to come into being.
I do hope you recall your first sentence the next time we have one of the periodic silly fights over whether the U.S. was founded on religious principles so that you can quash all the claims that “the Founders” were all deists or borderline atheists. 😛
= = =
In point of fact, the anti-slavery movement has been the exclusive province of religious thinkers since the first denunciation of slavery by Pope Eugene IV in the fifteenth century.
Clearly, many religious people also embraced the idea of slavery and it did, indeed, take the Industrial Revolution to provide the economic means by which abolition could make it into Law. However, every actual effort to promote abolition came from the ranks of religious people. Voltaire and Rousseau gave lip service to the “equality” of humans, but neither ever made a strong case for abolition, with Voltaire denigrating Africans on a few occasions. Montesquieu gave lip service to human equality, then rationalized slavery as economically prudent. Hume and Kant never even opposed slavery. Of the Founding Fathers, once we get past the hypocrisy of Jefferson and Washington, we find the strongest opposition to slavery coming from the religious Adams and the conventionally religious Hamilton. The one Deist, (never really a secularist), who opposed slavery was Franklin.
Chattel slavery was first and always opposed by members of religious groups while the rationalists either accepted slavery, ignored slavery, or gave lip service to its opposition while benefitting from its continuance.
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