# Religion in school -- a true story **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2000, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288 "2000-08-22T09:41:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/1 "2000-08-22T09:41:58Z")
Yesterday, at my school, all the students were handed a brochure about “Character Education.” Here are some quotes from it: (emphasis mine) > [@](#): > > What is Character Education? > The Values and Education Implementation Guide from the Georgia Department of Education defines Character Education as the processs by which **positive personality traits** are developed, **encouraged** and reinforced through examlple, study, and practice. “Character Connections” are teachable moments which integrate the teaching of character into daily content area instruction. > > Which character traits will be taught and how were they selected? > **Following legislation** , the Georgia Board of Education identified, defined, and adopted twenty-seven character traits which shall be taught to students in Georgia schools in grades K-12. The list appears below. There were several “character traits” on there, including cheefulness, virtue, self-control, and kindness, but there was also “Respect for the Creator.” So my school will soon be teaching Respect for the Creator in a public school. As the brochure said, this is following legislation. This afternoon I plan to write my state legislators and urge them to repeal this law. Perhaps the ACLU will be interested as well. When a teacher was reading out the list today, I asked why that was on there, and she said, “If you don’t have a God, then you can respect that.” I pointed out that it said respect for _the_ Creator, not “respect for one’s religion or lack thereof.” Instantly several of the more Christian of my fellow classmates began to yell at me (I’m serious) and tell me to “Let it go” as it supposedly wasn’t that important that children were going to be taught religion in public schools. The teacher continued to say that I could respect my lack of a God, which is most certainly not what the leaflet says. My question for Great Debates is, should Respect for the Creator be allowed in a public school? And does anyone have any suggestions of how I can help to stop it other than writing about a dozen people in the Legislature? ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/2 "2000-08-22T12:15:13Z")
Respect for the Creator of what? the list? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/3 "2000-08-22T12:38:33Z")
Cheerfull is a character trait? Or are they saying it’s good character to appear cheerfull even if you’re not? Anyway, the ‘respect for the Creator’ crap will get struck down. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/4 "2000-08-22T14:18:29Z")
Georgia needs 27 traits? Heck, the Boy Scouts got by with twelve. (And their twelfth point, while intended as religion, could be adapted to a “reverence for life” or a “reverence to liberty” or something.) I’m curious whether the Georgia legislature came up with the 27 points or whether they mandated “something” that became the 27 points when it came out of the Board of Education. It would really surprise me to discover that “Respect for the Creator” could make it through two houses of the legislature and across the governor’s desk without the ACLU (or someone) raising a red flag long before this. (Probably shouldn’t have said “red flag” and demonstrated my Commie/atheist sympathies.) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/5 "2000-08-22T14:24:39Z")
Oh, goody. Another reason to persecute goths, freaks, geeks, and depressed gay kids. As someone said, the whippings will continue until morale improves. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/6 "2000-08-22T16:41:29Z")
I am not surprised to see this written into law. The thing is, religious folks of a certain ilk truly want to ensure that children are brought up on a steady diet of their particular tenets to the exclusion of all else. They don’t see school as a place that _should_ be separate from church, and it would suit them just fine if evolution were replaced with Bible Cosmology 101, and there were daily prayer, and mandatory saying of grace. Laws and school policy are drafted specifically to try to weasel around the Supreme Court’s previous Separation of Church and State rulings, and when one policy is thrown down, another slightly changed policy takes its place. It is a sad state of affairs that leads some people to believe that their faith is so fragile that it cannot stand if children do not receive daily indoctrination in it, or that contrary viewpoints from any realm of thought should not be heard. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/7 "2000-08-22T17:25:06Z")
Call the ACLU and write your congresspeople post haste. If this is not a violation of SOCAS, I don’t know what is. * * * Yer pal, Satan [sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Four months, one week, six days, 15 hours, 24 minutes and 10 seconds. 5425 cigarettes not smoked, saving $678.21. Life saved: 2 weeks, 4 days, 20 hours, 5 minutes.[/sub] **_"Satan is not an unattractive person."_-Drain Bead** [sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey![/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/8 "2000-08-22T17:33:21Z")
ah, life in the Bible Belt. > [@](#): > > My question for Great Debates is, should Respect for the Creator be allowed in a public school? And does anyone have any suggestions of how I can help to stop it other than writing about a dozen people in the Legislature? (1) allowed? yes. taught? no. (2) Get the media involved. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/9 "2000-08-22T17:33:48Z")
Why do people even bother trying? Hell, it’ll get struck down like every other thing does. Soon we will have a society in which you can’t worship _anything_ in public. Want to make sure the IPU is watching? TOO BAD! Want to bow to Allah? SORRY SUCKER! Sacrifice a nubile young virgin female? WRONG! Dang. I thought this country was founded on freedom of religion? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/10 "2000-08-22T17:36:22Z")
[House Bill 393](http://www2.state.ga.us/Legis/1997_98/leg/fulltext/hb393.htm) Excerpted: > [@](#): > > 1- 9 BE IT ENACTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF GEORGIA: > > 1-10 SECTION 1. > > 1-11 Part 2 of Article 6 of Chapter 2 of Title 20 of the Official > 1-12 Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to education > 1-13 competencies and core curriculum, is amended by adding at > 1-14 the end of said part a new Code Section 20-2-145 to read as > 1-15 follows: > > 1-16 "20-2-145. > > 1-17 The State Board of Education shall develop by the start of > 1-18 the 1997-1998 school year a comprehensive character > 1-19 education program for levels K-12. This comprehensive > 1-20 character education program shall be known as the > 1-21 ‘character curriculum’ and shall focus on the students’ > 1-22 development of the following character traits: courage, > 1-23 patriotism, citizenship, honesty, fairness, respect for > 1-24 others, kindness, cooperation, self-respect, self-control, > 1-25 courtesy, compassion, tolerance, diligence, generosity, > 1-26 punctuality, cleanliness, cheerfulness, school pride, > 1-27 respect for the environment, **respect for the creator** , > 1-28 patience, creativity, sportsmanship, loyalty, > 1-29 perseverance, and virtue. Local boards may implement such > 1-30 a program at any time and for any grade levels, and the > 1-31 state board shall encourage the implementation of such > 1-32 plan." **bolding mine** (I always figured it was enough to be Trustworthy Loyal Helpful Friendly Courteous Kind Obedient _had some problems with this one once in a while)_ Cheerful Thrifty Brave Clean Reverent.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/11 "2000-08-22T17:42:21Z")
**SaintZero** , where have you seen anyone call for a stop to worship in public? The objection is to preaching a particular religious concept in a public school. “Respect for nature” would have worked. “Respect for the environment” wouldhave worked. “Respect for others” would have worked. Teaching respect for “the creator” makes the great assumption that a child believes that there is a creator. Putting it into the curriculum permits students (and teachers) who do believe in “the creator” to abuse any child who questions whether there is a creator. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/12 "2000-08-22T17:45:31Z")
Interestingly enough, the quote is respect for the **c** reator, rather than repect for the **C** reator. I wonder if they plan on trying some twisted secular interpretation to pass the Supreme Court’s acid tests? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/13 "2000-08-22T17:51:39Z")
This is the very next section of the statute: > [@](#): > > 2- 1 SECTION 1.1. > > 2- 2 In the event any section, subsection, sentence, clause, or > 2- 3 phrase of this Act shall be declared or adjudged invalid or > 2- 4 unconstitutional, such adjudication shall in no manner > 2- 5 affect the other sections, subsections, sentences, clauses, > 2- 6 or phrases of this Act, which shall remain of full force and > 2- 7 effect as if the section, subsection, sentence, clause, or > 2- 8 phrase so declared or adjudged invalid or unconstitutional > 2- 9 were not originally a part hereof. The General Assembly > 2-10 declares that it would have passed the remaining parts of > 2-11 this Act if it had known that such part or parts hereof > 2-12 would be declared or adjudged invalid or unconstitutional. They expected this to be challenged. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/14 "2000-08-22T18:00:31Z")
**tomndebb** : Actually, that’s pretty standard boilerplate for statutes. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they expected this one to be challenged (although it’s hard to see how they wouldn’t have). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/15 "2000-08-22T18:28:11Z")
Gotta back ENugent on that one, Tom~. I’ve worked as a law-drafter for local governments, and all state and local statutes nearly always include a “severability clause” in wording similar to that one, to “assure” that if some court finds a piece of it unconstitutional or otherwise invalid, it won’t throw out the rest of it. “Assure” in quotes because the courts sometimes throw out the whole law, severability clause or not. The 1892 U.S. Income Tax Law had such a clause, and in finding one portion of it to be unconstitutional, the SCOTUS tossed the whole megillah, since “it would be manifestly unjust, and contrary to the framers’ intention, to cause the whole burden of the tax to remain placed on those against whom taxes may be levied under the remaining sections.” (Not a direct quote but a close paraphrase from memory.) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/16 "2000-08-22T18:32:24Z")
**Jello** , this is clearly unconstitutional. Call the media and the ACLU if you like, but what will get the school’s attention is the threat of legal action. You have a right to pursue legal action under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 for a violation of your Constitutional rights. (When you see a school religious practice get struck down, it is generally the result of a § 1983 lawsuit.) Send a letter mentioning the possibility of a § 1983 action. If that gets no response, contact the ACLU. If they won’t take up your cause, they may at least refer you to an attorney. It is fun living in the Bible Belt, isn’t it? When I was in Junior High, in the 70’s, in rural Georgia, we were called into an assembly where we were basically subjected to a sermon by a Baptist minister. In the middle of it, he urged everyone to “Stand up if you love Jesus!” :rolleyes: I wound up walking out (and getting chased down by an angry teacher). I tell that story, because that is just how far some folks will take religion in public schools if given the opportunity. Fight to maintain Jefferson’s “wall of separation” between church and state. Note: I see nothing wrong with teaching “character” or “citizenship”. It’s the “Creator” business that goes too far. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/17 "2000-08-22T18:32:39Z")
Go get 'em, Jello! What are all 27 character traits, by the way? I am dying of curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/18 "2000-08-22T18:40:28Z")
Here is a link to [42 U.S.C. § 1983](http://law2.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t41t42+2576+0++%28%29%20%20and%20%28%2842%29%20adj%20usc%29%3Acite%20and%20%28usc%20w%2F10%20%281983%29%29%3Acite%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20). Attorneys’ fees are a recoverable item of damages. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/19 "2000-08-22T18:45:19Z")
Let me try that again. Here’s the link: [http://law2.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t41t42+2576+0++()%20%20and%20((42)%20adj%20usc)%3Acite%20and%20(usc%20w%2F10%20(1983))%3Acite%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20](http://law2.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t41t42+2576+0++%28%29%20%20and%20%28%2842%29%20adj%20usc%29%3Acite%20and%20%28usc%20w%2F10%20%281983%29%29%3Acite%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2000, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/20 "2000-08-22T18:50:31Z")
Dang it! Well, here is the link to the [searchable U.S. Code](http://uscode.house.gov/usc.htm). Just enter 42 in the “title” box and 1983 in the “section” box, hit the “search” button, and that will get you there. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288.md?page=2)