# Religion in school -- a true story **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2000, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288 "2000-08-22T09:41:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/61 "2000-08-25T00:16:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you think this unnamed “group” is behind the Georgia legislation? By the way, what is the name of this “group”? Where is it headquartered? I’d like to write them a letter and tell them to cut it out. Y’know, you’ve gone all out on this stuff over a simple smart-ass remark. You have now tried to have me accuse the State of Georgia of anti-Catholic bias, which I have not done. You have now tried to have me accuse the South of anti-Catholic bias, which I have not done. You have tried to have me accuse some “unnamed” (your words) group as committing a conspiracy to get the “creator” into Georgia schools. I have not mentioned any conspiracy. Why have you? In your next post I almost expect to be accused of racism because the bill’s primary sponsor was black. I have also not claimed that Fundamentalist Christians march in lock step on all issues. It is not a stereotype to note that the primary religious persuasion of the South is of the loosely collected assemblages of denominations that follow basic Fundamentalism tenets. It is not a stereotype to note that every one of the attempts to put “creation science” into school curricula has been launched by groups funded by member associations of that loose association of Fundamentalists. It is a fact that the religious opposition to Kennedy and Smith was organized by Fundamentalist Christians whose primary complaint was that those candidates would impose their own religious beliefs on the country. I do not believe that there was a conspiracy, here. I believe that a few individuals put together a list of characteristics that they would like to see championed in the schools. I believe that the “creator” phrase simply came out of their personal beliefs without a lot of thought and without a _deliberate_ attempt to impose their religious beliefs. However, to have inserted that phrase at the end of over twenty years of bitter and loud battles over public prayer in schools and Creationism in science classes indicates that either it was deliberate or that they were not paying attention. I would actually vote for the latter. The bill passed unanimously in both houses of the legislature with no debate and darned little discussion. I suspect that fewer than a dozen legislators even know that the phrase is there (if they know _any_ of the text of the law that they passed). It was a feel-good law. I don’t believe that they were conspiring to impose their beliefs; I believe that _with their religious backgrounds_ they simply assume that “respect for the creator” is a good trait to have, regardless of the political battles that have swirled around religion and education for decades. No conspiracy. No evil intent. However, when all the eyebrows on this MB were raised about that phrase, \*_Saint Zero_’s response was to wonder whether we are going to start suppressing people’s chances based on their religion. My response: it has already happened. How did it happen? It happened because a lot of people with some common religious views (and one does not have to be part of a monolithic institution to share a belief in a number of basic tenets) were afraid that people with different religious views would endanger the country. Fundamentalists can argue each other to death over dispensationalism and a host of other issues, but they choose the name Fundamentalist because there are some core beliefs they do share. Now, if Carl von Epps is a Catholic, a Satanist, or even just a Lutheran, I will apologize for jumping to a conclusion. If he’s Methodist or A.M.E., I’m afraid I’m going to continue to figure he’s pretty well influenced by the Fundamentalist culture. This does not mean that I believe he cannot think for himself. As I noted, above, I am not really into a conspiracy theory, here. It does mean that I would suspect that he would simply throw “respect for the creator” in as an obvious trait because he would not even notice that it conflicts with the current reading of the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/62 "2000-08-25T01:50:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saint Zero \* > \*\*Why do people even bother trying? Hell, it’ll get struck down like every other thing does. Soon we will have a society in which you can’t worship _anything_ in public. Want to make sure the IPU is watching? TOO BAD! Want to bow to Allah? SORRY SUCKER! Sacrifice a nubile young virgin female? WRONG! > > Dang. I thought this country was founded on freedom of religion? \*\* Apples and oranges, Saint. If the preaching is in a public area, people have the choice to stay or leave as they wish. A child does not have that choice in school and parents have few options for affordable alternative schooling. So if a child is being taught religious ideas that go against their own, what can they do. Therefore, there runs a huge risk it becoming religion by coersion. Now, I’m not arguing against the “creator” statute specifically, just religion and schools in general and how the issue is not comparable to freedom of religion elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/63 "2000-08-25T04:32:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > I keep worrying that one day we will end up screening political canidates on the basis of religion. > > You’re too late, the same people who put “respect for the creator” in the Georgia education bill were also the people who screened the presidential candidates of 1928 and 1960 according to their religion. \*\* Didn’t seem to hurt Kennedy. As I recall, he was in office until someone shot him. And that guy wasn’t religious, that we know about. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/64 "2000-08-25T04:38:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beakerxf \* > \*\*Now, I’m not arguing against the “creator” statute specifically, just religion and schools in general and how the issue is not comparable to freedom of religion elsewhere. \*\* Snipped a bit there. True. I am paranoid about this one. I keep having this fear that “they” won’t stop until we all can’t worship in public. Re: the Athesist I agree, it would be hard for one to get elected, if he were that militant about it. Less militant, maybe. Get the people used to the idea that a person that qualified won’t ruin the country, and it’d work. Course, Clinton claims to be a Christian, but he still had his little office affair. Ah well, we all sin and fall short, as the line goes. I understand I’ve been reacting knee-jerkishly here, but this is one of those few issues I feel passionately about. Hard to disengage the “Hulk SMASH” part of the brain long enough for clear thoughts to come forth. Oh well, ya’ll don’t mind me stating my opinion. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Shaky\_Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90db22/32.png) [@Shaky\_Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaky_Jake)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/65 "2000-08-25T13:41:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saint Zero \* > > Re: the Athesist > > I agree, it would be hard for one to get elected, if he were that militant about it. Less militant, maybe. So, merely stating “There is no God, humans made it up as a source of comfort, like a child creates an imaginary friend” is “militant”? This is the attitude of intolerance that scares and saddens me. I would say more, but I am stunned into speechlessness Shaky Jake ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Lotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sweet\_Lotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Lotus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/66 "2000-08-25T13:49:40Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Shaky Jake \* > So, merely stating “There is no God, humans made it up as a source of comfort, like a child creates an imaginary friend” is “militant”? This is the attitude of intolerance that scares and saddens me. I would say more, but I am stunned into speechlessness._\* Shaky Jake, I can’t believe you are so insensitive that you believe that you can say to someone; “The beliefs you hold dearest to your heart, the ones that have comforted you and sustained you, are childish and invalid.” And not expect them to react strongly to you. If they believed you, they would ceratinly feel something had been taken from them. They may also feel stupid for being a “child”. If they didn’t, they would say; “Who the hell do you think you are, telling me you know what is best for me?” ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Lotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sweet\_Lotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Lotus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/67 "2000-08-25T13:51:20Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sweet\_Lotus \* > If they believed you, they would ceratinly feel something had been taken from them._\* I meant **certainly**. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/68 "2000-08-25T14:54:08Z")
Racist! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Konrad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@Konrad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Konrad)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/69 "2000-08-25T15:01:35Z")
spoke sez: > [@](#): > > Of course we should teach children to strive toward an ideal. As individuals, and as a nation, we should strive toward ideal goals, even if we never fully achieve them. Do you genuinely disagree with that, or are you just being contrarian? Well I was only half-joking about that. It’s not as much that we shouldn’t strive toward ideal goal but that this whole program is like cargo cult science: It has all the appearances of trying to teach virtues and it looks like it could work, but it won’t because it’s just an imitation of a real program. They’re mandating the outward appearance of the program but it’s literally empty inside. No matter how many dials or gauges you put on an empty box you won’t make it a radio. I know that you can say that the details of the program would be left up to the discretion of the teachers but that’s the whole point. If a teacher is already encouraging good behaviour they won’t to need the gov’t to tell them how to organize it. If the opposite is true then a teacher will just adopt the structure that is mandated and make sure to include all 27 virtues so that what they teach resembles what the law mandates and will still be just an empty shell. I’m still in school, my memory is fresh on the subject of what happens when something is mandated by the government. The Quebec gov’t recently mandated an english exit exam for all students graduating from cegep. The school adopts all the outward appearances of the program, but nothing changes. If it says to mark clarity, logic and grammar on an english exam then they’ll put little columns with those words under them when they write the mark but nothing will really change. Those columns might as well say milk, butter and sugar. It will not work because the law addresses the appearance of something but nothing else. Cargo Cult Science: [http://wwwcdf.pd.infn.it/~loreti/science.html](http://wwwcdf.pd.infn.it/~loreti/science.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/70 "2000-08-25T15:01:51Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Shaky Jake \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saint Zero \* > So, merely stating “There is no God, humans made it up as a source of comfort, like a child creates an imaginary friend” is “militant”? > \*\* I don’t know if “militant” is the best term here. Insulting, belittling, confrontational, and arrogant would be better. I am not a believer myself, and I may make the exact same argument. I do believe that God sprang from man and not vice versa. I do believe that it is at least in part a response to human needs. But I would never say the “imaginary friend” bit unless I were looking to cause anger, or had lost all control of my own temper and was lashing out in anger. If I were to do so while running for office, I would deserve to lose the election. However, I would like to see the day where an atheist could respond to questions about religion honestly and still be elected. I don’t think we’re anywhere near that point though. Church, God, and public prayer seem to be part and parcel of the image-making machinery these days. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/71 "2000-08-25T15:27:22Z")
**Konrad** , I will grant you that there is always a danger that teachers implementing the curriculum will take a prosaic approach. If taught by rote, these virtues do indeed lose all meaning. (And sadly, judging from the OP, it appears that teaching by rote is exactly what is happening.) I also believe, however, that these values (most of them anyway) _should_ be taught. They should not be abandoned as relics of a more idealistic age. Now, how do we get local boards of education and teachers to convey these ideals in a _meaningful_ way? Maybe it won’t happen. But then again, I see no harm in at least paying lip service to the ideals. Think of it as just a little reminder of something teachers ought to know anyway. Maybe then at least a few teachers might take notice and think creatively about the problem. If even a few teachers get the idea and make the extra effort to pass along these virtues in a interesting and thought-provoking way (and _not_ by rote), then I think the legislation may be worthwhile. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/72 "2000-08-25T15:29:14Z")
Don’t forget the the current gov of Minnesota angered the populace with his “religion is a crutch for the weak minded.” Doesn’t seem to have hurt his long term poll results too much though. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/73 "2000-08-25T17:11:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dangerosa \* > > \*\*Don’t forget the the current gov of Minnesota angered the populace with his “religion is a crutch for the weak minded.” Doesn’t seem to have hurt his long term poll results too much though. \*\* Don’t forget how he was villified he was by the media and other public figured until he was forced to retract his statements. Sheesh… * * * Yer pal, Satan [sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Four months, two weeks, two days, 15 hours, 10 minutes and 11 seconds. 5545 cigarettes not smoked, saving $693.16. Extra life with Drain Bead: 2 weeks, 5 days, 6 hours, 5 minutes.[/sub] **_"Satan is not an unattractive person."_-Drain Bead** [sub]Thanks for the ringing endorsement, honey![/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Shaky\_Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90db22/32.png) [@Shaky\_Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaky_Jake)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/74 "2000-08-25T17:33:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet\_Lotus \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Shaky Jake \* > > So, merely stating “There is no God, humans made it up as a source of comfort, like a child creates an imaginary friend” is “militant”? This is the attitude of intolerance that scares and saddens me. I would say more, but I am stunned into speechlessness. > > Shaky Jake, I can’t believe you are so insensitive that you believe that you can say to someone; “The beliefs you hold dearest to your heart, the ones that have comforted you and sustained you, are childish and invalid.” And not expect them to react strongly to you. If they believed you, they would ceratinly feel something had been taken from them. They may also feel stupid for being a “child”. If they didn’t, they would say; “Who the hell do you think you are, telling me you know what is best for me?” I got my panties in a wad and went overboard there. I apologize, that was pretty stupid. I would have it coming if I belittled someone’s deeply-held beliefs, and the “imaginary child” bit came off as belittling. I did not intend to belittle. What struck me was that my hypothetical candidate was termed “militant” for saying he “doesn’t believe in God - the concept is merely a construct of humanity” (not calling it “childish” mind you). That in no way strikes me as “militant”, nor belittling. He was not commenting on other’s views, nor trying to impose his on others, merely stating his beliefs as all manner of believing candidates do. It’s a perfectly legitimate viewpoint to hold, IMO, about the phenomena of the myriad of vastly differing religious outlooks we find in the world. And yet someone took to calling that “militant”. As far as “Who the hell do you think you are, telling me you know what is best for me?”, well, non-believers are often told just that - that the believers know what is best for us all, and if we just accepted whatever their Way is, all would be well. Again I apologize - and what’s more, I was wrong. I meant no offense. Shaky Jake ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Lotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sweet\_Lotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Lotus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/75 "2000-08-25T18:29:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shaky Jake \* > **As far as “Who the hell do you think you are, telling me you know what is best for me?”, well, non-believers are often told just that - that the believers know what is best for us all, and if we just accepted whatever their Way is, all would be well.** I agree, however, please consider the following: Mr.Atheist is walking down the street and is accosted by a very loud and very fervent fundie. He thinks to himself; “Jesus H. Cracker, what a nutbar. Does he have any rationality at all?” and keeps on walking. Mr.True Believer is walking down the street and is accosted by a very loud and very fervent atheist. He thinks to himself; “I have to protect that which is closest to my heart. Why doesn’t that man have faith? Why is he trying to **take mine away from me**?” See, Mr. Atheist has nothing to lose while Mr. T.B. is trying to preserve something precious to him. I believe that makes a difference. ---
**Author:** ![ren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@ren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ren)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/76 "2000-08-25T18:38:55Z")
> [@](#): > > I also believe, however, that these values (most of them anyway) should be taught. They should not be abandoned as relics of a more idealistic age. I’m willing to agree that there are values that should be taught, and that many in the list are among them. But implying that failure to pass legislation about it relegates values to “relics” of another age is pure sophistry. I am adamantly opposed to any set of “character values” being mandated by government. It is not the role of government. Period. Furthermore, I don’t see how such legislation can be enforced without running afoul of other civil liberties. The “creator” issue is just the most obvious. (I notice, actually, that the bill is rather vague about enforcement. Not surprising.) And I have to ask again, where are the parents in all this? If you want your kids to grow up honest, then teach them the value of honesty for heaven’s sake (and I might add the obvious comment that words alone will fail without a good example to follow). Since when is it the bleedin’ government’s job to raise your kids? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/77 "2000-08-25T18:49:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saint Zero \* > > I agree, it would be hard for one to get elected, if he were that militant about it. Less militant, maybe. Get the people used to the idea that a person that qualified won’t ruin the country, and it’d work. Course, Clinton claims to be a Christian, but he still had his little office affair. Of course, Clinton is the only Christian who has ever sinned. All other Christians live blameless spotless lives, including yourself. Its possible that when Clinton goes to church he spends his time thinking “What a load of crap, I can’t believe people are this gullible. If I thought I could be president without religion, I’d do it” Or maybe he thinks “Oh, God. Forgive me. I’m weak and I’ve made so many mistakes.” ---
**Author:** ![Shaky\_Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90db22/32.png) [@Shaky\_Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaky_Jake)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/78 "2000-08-25T19:06:24Z")
Oops, **Ptahlis** , “Insulting, belittling, confrontational, and arrogant” you said? didn’t mean it to be…but I guess that about fits, for that post at least. I meant to include you specifically in my apology, and of course anyone else who was offended by my childish (pun intended) blathering. My mouth gets in the way of my head sometimes. Shaky Jake ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/79 "2000-08-25T19:46:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shaky Jake \* > \*\*Oops, **Ptahlis** , > “Insulting, belittling, confrontational, and arrogant” you said? > > didn’t mean it to be…but I guess that about fits, for that post at least. I meant to include you specifically in my apology, and of course anyone else who was offended by my childish (pun intended) blathering. My mouth gets in the way of my head sometimes. > > Shaky Jake > \*\* No apology necessary Jake. I’ve run off at the mouth before when I was upset with some religious folks’ actions before as well. Heck, I did it on this very board in one thread when I first got here. It was my _own_ lesson in how a flip comment would be received that let me understand what the danger was in what you posted. 🙂 My problem is, sometimes certain people, IRL or here, get under my skin. And sometimes when I respond to them in a post, I tend to forget that there are a whole bunch of other folks who didn’t do anything wrong that are reading along as well. The first OP I ever wrote ticked some people off unnecessarily, and people from both sides of the argument gave me “gentle reminders” about what kind of things don’t work so well here! ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2000, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288/80 "2000-08-25T19:49:08Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sweet\_Lotus_ > See, Mr. Atheist has nothing to lose while Mr. T.B. is trying to preserve something precious to him. I believe that makes a difference Not to put words into your mouth, but it sounds like you are trying to say the belief in God is more important to T.B. than a fervent non-belief in God is to an athiest. I don’t think this is true at all. Athiests, for whatever reason, have chosen to believe in the non-existence of God. And who knows, maybe this belief is very important to them? It almost seems to me that it could be worse the other way around. Theoretically, Mr. T.B. would be comfortable and secure enough with his faith that anything Mr. Atheist says shouldn’t have any effect on him. Especially if this is the same T.B. that is trying to convert the Athiest. I’m really sorry for the rambling here, but I’m trying to get to a point, I think. If the True Believers out there are going to be deeply offended by being preached to about the unveracity of their faith, they should think twice (and possibly follow the Golden Rule) before preaching to others. Well anyway, if someone can make some sense of the above, those are my two cents. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-in-school-a-true-story/30288.md?page=5)