# Religion, Transphobia and Category Errors **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2025, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878 "2025-02-04T17:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/221 "2025-05-06T17:29:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then what’s with the “luckily most Democrats are liberals not progressives”? This implies a conflict between the two, while “liberal progressives” implies there’s not necessarily any conflict at all. Sure, I can be more precise. Luckily, very few Democrats are Illiberal Progressives. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/222 "2025-05-06T17:38:07Z")
Luckily (for you) you can interpret that nonsense phrase any way you want. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/223 "2025-05-06T22:45:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You do? And where do you think I’ll find that phrase if I do a search? The top result is r/communism101 on Reddit, for me. I’ve certainly heard it from self-described progressives before, along with “liberal ghouls”. Although googling, apparently _both_ rightists and leftists like that one. As far as I can tell the term “liberal” has been so thoroughly demonized that it usually means “people I don’t like” rather than any actually defined political position. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/224 "2025-05-06T22:57:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What is the difference? AFAICT “progressive” is just the more modern/hip term for “liberal”, since conservative media was able to do so much damage to the term “liberal” over the past few decades. Americans do tend to misuse ‘liberal’ to mean vaguely left-wing. ‘Progressive’ would be someone who advocates for social reform. ‘Liberal’ would be someone who believes in individual rights and civil liberties, and in general thinks people should have the freedom to make their own choices if they aren’t hurting anyone else. Like @Babale said, they aren’t mutually exclusive, but they aren’t synonymous, either. Progressives are a minority of Americans, and they’re a minority among D voters, too. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/225 "2025-05-07T02:22:01Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Americans do tend to misuse ‘liberal’ to mean vaguely left-wing. Or centrists, or moderate right wingers. It all depends on who is doing the accusing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/226 "2025-05-07T05:03:55Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > ‘Liberal’ would be someone who believes in individual rights and civil liberties, and in general thinks people should have the freedom to make their own choices if they aren’t hurting anyone else. I believe in all those things, but still consider myself strongly illiberal (because liberalism _also_ embraces capitalism). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/227 "2025-05-07T05:27:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I believe in all those things, but still consider myself strongly illiberal (because liberalism _also_ embraces capitalism). Thing is, that’s an idiosyncratic usage of the word “illiberal” that basically _guarantees_ you’ll be misunderstood. Illiberalism means tyranny and bigotry in the ears of most people. I mean, just google it; not a word about capitalism; lots of words about: > Opposed to liberal principles; restricting freedom of thought or behavior. > > Narrow-minded; prejudiced; bigoted; intolerant > > Current populist leaders—especially within Western states—have the tendency to promote illiberal values, a notable example being the exclusion of immigrants and openly xenophobic statements. > > Intolerance Bigotry > > Injustice Iinequity > > Inequality Narrowmindedness Just to skim the first page of results. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/228 "2025-05-07T05:28:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Thing is, that’s an idiosyncratic usage of the word “illiberal” that basically _guarantees_ you’ll be misunderstood. I fair enough - “not at all a liberal” sound any better to you? Although I am apparently a left-wing illiberal by Enyedi’s [recent categorization](https://www.cogitatiopress.com/politicsandgovernance/article/view/8521/3911): > **Left‐Wing Illiberalism** > The final type is left‐wing illiberalism. This category covers anti‐capitalistic, egalitarian, and collectivistic criticisms of liberal democratic principles. Positions that express a willingness to sacrifice freedom of expression, pluralism, neutral state, limited government, or privacy in return for social justice, equality, and progress belong here. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/229 "2025-05-07T05:38:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > fair enough - “not at all a liberal” sound any better to you? > > Although I am apparently a left-wing illiberal by Enyedi’s [recent categorization](https://www.cogitatiopress.com/politicsandgovernance/article/view/8521/3911) “Not a liberal” is _much_ better. I don’t know who Enyedi is, but they sound like they are talking about dictatorships? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/230 "2025-05-07T06:14:49Z")
Not just dictatorships, but the whole broad category of [“illiberal democracy” (or “_electoral authoritarianism_”)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiberal_democracy). But in talking about that topic, they develop a categorization for types of illiberalism (not just types of illiberal democracies). ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/231 "2025-05-07T08:33:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Although I am apparently a left-wing illiberal by Enyedi’s [recent categorization](https://www.cogitatiopress.com/politicsandgovernance/article/view/8521/3911): > > > **Left‐Wing Illiberalism** > > The final type is left‐wing illiberalism. This category covers anti‐capitalistic, egalitarian, and collectivistic criticisms of liberal democratic principles. Positions that express a willingness to sacrifice freedom of expression, pluralism, neutral state, limited government, or privacy in return for social justice, equality, and progress belong here. That’s a useful description. These are presumably the illiberal progressives that @Babale objects to (I do too). Unfortunately, it’s increasingly common for progressives to be left-wing illiberals, and they usually dislike liberals because liberals are _not_ willing to sacrifice freedom of expression, pluralism, neutral state, limited government, or privacy in return for social justice, equality, and progress. Meanwhile other types of illiberalism have rapidly gained ground on the right, so liberalism is being assailed from both sides. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/232 "2025-05-07T10:20:16Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > liberalism is being assailed from both sides. Good. Maybe the liberal movement can look at what it’s doing wrong, then, and be better. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/233 "2025-05-07T13:35:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > liberalism is being assailed from both sides. > > Good. Maybe the liberal movement can look at what it’s doing wrong, then, and be better The illiberal left is second only to the illiberal right in being the absolute last place _anyone_ should go to for advice on how to run things. All we have to do is look at places run illiberally to see why we shouldn’t be taking their advice. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/234 "2025-05-07T13:45:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > All we have to do is look at places run illiberally to see why we shouldn’t be taking their advice. My brand of left illiberalism doesn’t run any place, so it’ll be a quick search… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/235 "2025-05-07T13:51:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > My brand of left illiberalism doesn’t run any place, I rest my case. How about some trial runs at the small or medium scale before you take things national? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/236 "2025-05-07T14:29:13Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I rest my case. Your “case” is appeal to ignorance? [![](https://us-tuna-sounds-images.voicemod.net/339d60ed-7346-4ee6-af0e-a2d3c7837a0f-1686281543785.jpg) ](https://us-tuna-sounds-images.voicemod.net/339d60ed-7346-4ee6-af0e-a2d3c7837a0f-1686281543785.jpg) > [@Babale](#): > > How about some trial runs at the small or medium scale before you take things national? Happy for liberals to drop support for capitalism at any scale. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/237 "2025-05-07T14:34:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > rest my case. > > Your “case” is appeal to ignorance? No, my case is the fact that “Illiberal Leftists” can’t run shit in the real world. If it was a viable ideology, there would be some functional examples of it. (In before “well it would be viable if the evils of capitalism didn’t sabotage it!”) > [@MrDibble](#): > > Happy for liberals to drop support for capitalism at any scale. As members of the [Reality-Based Community](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community), I doubt you will see Liberals drop their support of the single most productive economic system which is responsible for more progress and prosperity than any other system in favor of a fairy tale. Regardless of whether that fairy tale is right or left wing flavored. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/238 "2025-05-07T14:41:56Z")
Also, it’s _incredibly_ rich that you claim _I’m_ the one appealing to ignorance when _you_ are the one saying your untested, unproven, completely theoretical economic system is better than the economic system that gave us the modern world. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/239 "2025-05-07T14:44:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > untested, unproven, completely theoretical economic system Which economic system? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/240 "2025-05-07T14:58:47Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Which economic system?. The one described as: > [@MrDibble](#): > > My brand of left illiberalism doesn’t run any place, I’m sure your “point” is that I don’t know what specific hypothetical system Dibble is a fan of. But _all of those in theory only systems are untested nonsense_. If you don’t like capitalism and have a better idea, that’s fine. You don’t get what you want by endlessly _critiquing_ the power that capitalism wields. You do it by finding like minded people and creating a community that operates by the principles you hold. People like to pretend that’s impossible, but it’s not; it happens _all the time_. It’s just that those ventures _fail_, because the ideas underlying them _are simply not better ideas than capitalism_. But rather than accepting that, proponents of these ideologies blame capitalism’s nefarious influence on all of their ills. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878.md?page=13)