# Religion, Transphobia and Category Errors **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2025, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878 "2025-02-04T17:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/241 "2025-05-07T15:08:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s just that those ventures _fail_, So, they’re _not_ untested and completely theoretical… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/242 "2025-05-07T15:14:36Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > It’s just that those ventures _fail_, > > So, they’re _not_ untested and completely theoretical…. As a group, you’re absolutely right, illiberal leftism is _not_ untested or theoretical. It has a long, bloody history of failure and murder. But you’ll note that Dibble alludes to _his flavor_ of illiberal leftism, which is typical - each particular advocate insists that while _other_ forms of illiberal leftism have been tried with disastrous results, _their particular_ flavor is actually different and would be amazing if implemented. You’ll note that Dibble didn’t respond to me asking for examples with “Well, there aren’t any countries that operate by the principles I suggest, but here are some worker coops that do some great stuff” or anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/243 "2025-05-07T15:22:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s just that those ventures _fail_, because the ideas underlying them _are simply not better ideas than capitalism_. That’s quite a badly-structured argument, in that you have not remotely demonstrated that the bit after “because” follows the assertion before it. One could, for example, argue that they fail because those with a vested interest in existing capitalist power structures take action to ensure they fail before they even have a chance to begin, which is not a test of which is the “better idea”. Also, I don’t know what system Mr Dibble has in mind. There are lots of different kinds of “capitalism”, ranging from social democracy to human trafficking. Perhaps he could elaborate on whether he means he’s against a specific type of capitalism or against all of them? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/244 "2025-05-07T15:26:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > In before “well it would be viable if the evils of capitalism didn’t sabotage it!”) So you know the answer, why ask the question? > [@Babale](#): > > single most productive economic system Productive, I’ll happily give you. Capitalism sure is good at sucking _all_ the nutrients out of its hosts. But … _looks at the burning world_… mere “productivity” is not the unalloyed good you seem to think it is. > [@Gyrate](#): > > whether he means he’s against a specific type of capitalism or against all of them? I’m against all of them. > [@Babale](#): > > You’ll note that Dibble didn’t respond to me asking for examples with “Well, there aren’t any countries that operate by the principles I suggest, but here are some worker coops that do some great stuff” or anything like that. I can happily do that, if you’d like. Or I can just link to a previous thread where [I’ve done that](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-there-ever-be-a-time-without-capitalism-and-what-would-it-look-like/992862/77), instead. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/245 "2025-05-07T15:42:22Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > That’s quite a badly-structured argument, in that you have not remotely demonstrated that the bit after “because” follows the assertion before it. One could, for example, argue that they fail because those with a vested interest in existing capitalist power structures take action to ensure they fail before they even have a chance to begin, which is not a test of which is the “better idea”. Yes, that’s the standard argument: > [@Babale](#): > > In before “well it would be viable if the evils of capitalism didn’t sabotage it!” It’s a silly argument. Literally “true communism has never been tried” tier. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/246 "2025-05-07T15:50:38Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It’s a silly argument. That is not a rebuttal of it. That’s just handwaving. There are reasons it’s the “standard argument”, one of which is that hardcore free market capitalism does indeed work to destroy other systems to prevent those benefitting from the status quo from losing power and money. On the other hand, hardcore free market capitalism also works to destroy itself (as we’re seeing now in America), which is why periodic upheavals to the left happen - often with a lot of blood shed. Personally I think some level of regulated capitalism combined with a welfare state is necessary for a functional free society, and I don’t think a system with _no capitalism whatsoever_ would work in the long run for a lot of reasons. But none of them are “it’s a silly argument”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/247 "2025-05-07T15:59:41Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I don’t think a system with _no capitalism whatsoever_ would work in the long run It has in the past, for thousands of years. Capitalism is only ~500 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/248 "2025-05-07T16:01:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It has in the past, for thousands of years. Capitalism is only ~500 years old. You want a return to feudalism? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/249 "2025-05-07T16:02:39Z")
Dark gods, no. But at the same time, I don’t look at capitalism like it’s some historical inevitability or the only natural outcome of history. There were many multiple other ways of being - temple economies, palace economies, gift economies, state economies - before feudalism ever existed. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/250 "2025-05-07T16:51:52Z")
What do you call people who value both individual freedom _and_ social justice? ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/251 "2025-05-07T17:00:08Z")
I think it’s going to depend on what groups you include as part of your social justice. If it’s a lot of so-called abberant groups then you’re a progressive commie. If it’s limited to lower and middle class straight white people you are get to be deigned a common sense centrist liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/252 "2025-05-07T17:12:40Z")
> [@Ms2001](#): > > Anti-trans policies often target gender nonconformity, and gender-nonconforming people are also disproportionately LGB: the average butch lesbian is more likely to be mistaken for a man and harassed in public than the average woman. Case in point: > **[Boston hotel suspends employee accused of forcibly removing guest from bathroom](https://www.wcvb.com/article/liberty-hotel-security-guard-suspended-boston/64693631)** > > A Boston hotel has suspended one of its security guards after a weekend confrontation that left a lesbian couple outraged. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/253 "2025-05-07T17:24:33Z")
FYI, If you don’t quote or @me, Discourse doesn’t notify me. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > What do you call people who value both individual freedom _and_ social justice? That fits any number of categories - I mean, I value both, for instance. Just not _unreservedly_. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2025, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/254 "2025-05-07T19:58:48Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > What do you call people who value both individual freedom _and_ social justice? Liberal progressive. It’s possible to be liberal and not be progressive; classical liberalism isn’t progressive, and [liberal conservatism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_conservatism) is a thing. But really it depends how much you value each. Political views exist on a spectrum, so these labels are never going to be exact. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2025, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/255 "2025-05-10T13:43:47Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Political views exist on a spectrum, Political views exist in a space that has at least 4 and maybe 10 dimensions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878.md?page=12)