# Religion, Transphobia and Category Errors **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2025, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878 "2025-02-04T17:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/41 "2025-02-06T16:27:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Religion and assertions gender identity don’t compare well. Gender identity has _far_ more scientific support, and at least as important people asserting a gender identity aren’t trying to force their identity on everyone else like the religious tend to do. Transwomen aren’t insisting on mandatory estrogen treatments for everyone, nor are transmen doing the opposite, which they’d have to be doing to make the analogy work. As far as religion goes there are many people who participate in religion, who like the lifestyle, who WANT to believe but they do not in fact believe. On the other end of the spectrum you have people who believe yet do nothing externally with it at all. Similarly you have the issue of drag queens. Yes I believe there are people who like the lifestyle and would maybe even assert but the internals are not there. I also believe that there are people who have feelings that never act on them. So the matchup of feelings to actions, like religion, isn’t always particularly coherent. Ultimately it is going to be a spectrum of feelings and behaviors. I think when people get into these issues initially they want their new world to be simple and explainable. There used to be people who claimed there was no such thing as a bisexual, and that every person who was homosexual was born that way. I don’t think either of those things is true. There are people “from birth” and also experimenters, people looking for a thrill, people who go back and forth, people who repress a particular urge and never act on it. That is actual reality. Yes I believe people have internal feelings about trans, but there’s a whole spectrum of reality. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/42 "2025-02-06T17:34:51Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Yes I believe people have internal feelings about trans, but there’s a whole spectrum of reality. There absolutely is a whole spectrum of reality about - Fandom - Headaches - Sexual turn-ons - Enjoyment of Jim Jarmusch films - Gender identities - Perception of color - Experiences of nature - Experiences experienced as the divine - Identity as a Buddhist Because these are all internal experiences, there doesn’t need to be a coherent “matchup of feelings to actions.” All there needs to be is a coherent matchup of “respect to declared experience.” Note what’s not on the list: an analysis of _why_ those internal experiences occurred. If you tell me: - I’m a fan of The Beatles because they’re the most musically complex band in history and are much better than trash like Taylor Swift; - I have a headache because that Chinese food had MSG in it; - I’m turned on by big butts because of evolutionary psychology; - I hate Jim Jarmusch movies because he’s totally incompetent at telling a story; - I identify as a man because I have a penis, and that’s 100% of the only criterion on which to identify as a man; - I see a difference between red and green because I’m paying attention and you’re not; - I love nature more than you because I’m more connected to mother earth than you; - I speak with God because God is real and is going to send you to hell for not believing; - I’m a Buddhist because the world really is an illusion and you’re too trapped by material goods to reach enlightenment; Now we’ve moved beyond your experience and into analysis, and now we have a basis for disagreement. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/43 "2025-02-06T19:09:59Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > For instance, churches that don’t want you to take communion unless you’re Christian are indeed subject to the possibility that people might just lie about that for the purpose of getting a bit of bread and alcohol. They’ve decided that they can pretty much live with that possibility, because the only danger is that they might have to extend their bread and wine budget (any other consequences are on the atheist communion-taker). When it comes to more important situations - like, who can get jobs in the church - they will usually do more investigative digging to find out not just whether the person has an internal feeling, but are their real-life actions consistent with it. There is a whole organization of atheist ministers, who have to hide their lack of belief because the paycheck depends on it and they aren’t trained to do anything else. They likely started out as believers, but stopped believing. In some communities there is a lot of social pressure to go to church, believe or not. And of course there are kids who go because their parents make them go. Non-believers have many more reasons to go to church than a sip of wine and a cracker. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/44 "2025-02-06T19:57:21Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > If I told you I was gay, and you were aware that I’ve been married to a man for 25 years, and then asked how many times I’d kissed a girl and I truthfully reply “zero”, then add “but I really feel like I’m gay on the _inside_”, probably you wouldn’t believe that. I would absolutely believe that. Why wouldn’t I? It’s not even that outre a hypothetical. Sexual identity isn’t contingent on sexual activity. A heterosexual virgin is still heterosexual. A lesbian is still a lesbian even if they’ve never kissed another woman. Secondly, and relatedly, lots and lots of people don’t realize their actual sexuality until much later in life, particularly if they come from highly religious or conservative backgrounds. “Middle aged married woman realizes she’s a lesbian,” is practically a cliche. > [@WalterBishop](#): > > Similarly, if a male tells the world they self-identity as a woman, but they then proceed to make _absolutely no concessions to femininity whatsoever_, to what extent should I accept that this person even understands what they’re saying? What, precisely, is a “concession to femininity?” If a biological woman makes no “concessions to femininity,” do they lose their status as a woman? Asking for all my trans guy friends. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/45 "2025-02-06T20:29:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There’s also the issue that it’s the religious who are trying to hurt people who don’t fit into their neatly assigned gender-boxes and not the opposite; this is _entirely_ too much like trying to blame the victim. So, are you claiming all religious people do that and just religious people? trump is not religious. And that no trans person ever did anything evil? ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/46 "2025-02-06T21:21:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What, precisely, is a “concession to femininity?” If a biological woman makes no “concessions to femininity,” do they lose their status as a woman? Asking for all my trans guy friends. In the specific case of my former colleague, shaving occasionally would’ve been a good start. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/47 "2025-02-06T21:32:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, are you claiming all religious people do that and just religious people? trump is not religious. > > And that no trans person ever did anything evil? That’s just the standard right wing rhetorical tactic of trying to shut down discussion by pretending an issue can’t be addressed unless a group is 100% identical and unified. Which isn’t ever so, therefore discussion is _conveniently_ impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/48 "2025-02-06T22:04:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Ah, thank you! Bad assumption on my part. I have no objective evidence that this is true other than her words, but I’ll trust her gender identity. You shouldn’t, because I don’t have one of those and have never claimed to. I do have this female body, however, so @WalterBishop is correct ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/49 "2025-02-06T22:05:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I would absolutely believe that. Why wouldn’t I? It’s not even that outre a hypothetical. Would you still believe it if it was in the context of a job interview for an LGBT position? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/50 "2025-02-06T22:06:50Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > In the specific case of my former colleague, shaving occasionally would’ve been a good start. So “Women who don’t shave” aren’t actually women, then? Because I’ve known a few cis-gender women who had visible facial hair, and didn’t really care about removing it. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/51 "2025-02-06T22:09:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So “Women who don’t shave” aren’t actually women, then? Because I’ve known a few cis-gender women who had visible facial hair, and didn’t really care about removing it. Well, they’re female, which counts for a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/52 "2025-02-06T22:31:22Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Would you still believe it if it was in the context of a job interview for an LGBT position? I’m not sure what an “LGBT position” is, outside of some very specific sex acts. Certainly, I can’t think of any job where it would be appropriate to hire someone purely based on their sexual identity. I suppose I can imagine a job where having significant experience with queer relationships might be necessary (say, a relationship counselor specializing in same-sex relationships) but the issue there would be a matter of _experience_, not _identity_. > [@WalterBishop](#): > > Well, they’re female, which counts for a lot. But she’s not making a concession to femininity! How can she be a woman if she doesn’t fulfill your specific stereotypes about how a woman should look or act? ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/53 "2025-02-06T22:38:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But she’s not making a concession to femininity! How can she be a woman if she doesn’t fulfill your specific stereotypes about how a woman should look or act? Alas, I can’t answer that question without contravening the board’s rules. Sorry. I have a question for you, though. Is there _anything_, quite literally _anything at all_, that a male who identifies as a woman can do to make you doubt his sincerity and/or stability? It seems to me like there can’t possibly be. Whatever standard you come up with, I can find a cisgender woman _somewhere_ who represents an exception to it. Therefore, we have no choice but to believe that everyone who says that they’re a woman genuinely is one, 100% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/54 "2025-02-06T22:42:35Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > Whatever standard you come up with, I can find a cisgender woman _somewhere_ who represents an exception to it. Hey, look at you, finally getting the point! ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/55 "2025-02-06T23:04:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Hey, look at you, finally getting the point! So, just to clarify, I wouldn’t be strawmanning you if I said your position was _Anyone who says they’re a woman is a woman, and everyone else is morally obligated to treat them as a woman because there exists no foolproof test of their sincerity. A male may dress like a stereotypical man, talk like a stereotypical man, and act like a stereotypical man, all the while rocking a beard that would shame a Viking, but if he **says** he’s a woman then he is one and you’re a bigot if you doubt him_ I realise this describes virtually no transgender women, but it’s still a position that would seem to follow from what you’ve said so far in this thread. If I’m going wrong, I’d appreciate some clarification on where I’m going wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/56 "2025-02-06T23:06:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Hey, look at you, finally getting the point! How do you distinguish a cisgender woman from a transgender woman? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/57 "2025-02-06T23:07:51Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > How do you distinguish a cisgender woman from a transgender woman? Why would I need to? ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/58 "2025-02-06T23:10:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Why would I need to? For the purpose of constructing a sentence that has the phrase “cisgender women” in it ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/59 "2025-02-06T23:21:17Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > For the purpose of constructing a sentence that has the phrase “cisgender women” in it A cisgender woman is a woman who identifies as the gender they were assigned at birth. A transgender woman is a woman who does not. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2025, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/60 "2025-02-06T23:27:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s just the standard right wing rhetorical tactic of trying to shut down discussion by pretending an issue can’t be addressed unless a group is 100% identical and unified. Which isn’t ever so, therefore discussion is _conveniently_ impossible. But you see "the religious’ are not even close to being unified. You might just as well say “humans” as religious. In fact we have been discussing the issue. If someone identifies as a woman, then as far as i am concerned they are one. There is no need to disbelieve or argue. Sure you can come up with crazy lifeboat cases, but they have little basis in real life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878.md?page=4)