# Religion, Transphobia and Category Errors **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2025, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878 "2025-02-04T17:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/161 "2025-05-05T19:14:40Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Not that the required effect of bathroom bans on transmen is ever discussed since the actual target of said legislation is, and only is, transwomen. i don’t really agree with that. The linked article above does mention trans men. The law, whether it explicitly mentions them or not, raises questions on what bathrooms trans men should use. The goal of such laws is that unless people can ‘pass’ they will not use any public bathroom at all. They will either stay out of their homes for only short periods, or not leave their homes at all. Society at large will not have to spend nearly as much time dealing with seeing them in public. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/162 "2025-05-05T19:16:03Z")
Yes the goal of all of these laws is to remove transgender individuals from public life and make them confirm to traditional gender standards. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/163 "2025-05-05T19:16:55Z")
The “final” goal is to make it damn near impossible to operate in society if you are gay, lesbian or trans. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/164 "2025-05-05T19:17:19Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > i don’t really agree with that. The linked article above does mention trans men. The law, whether it explicitly mentions them or not, raises questions on what bathrooms trans men should use. I’m more thinking about here, the US, and literally here where posting pics of transmen and asking which bathroom they should use is responded to with silence. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/165 "2025-05-05T19:20:28Z")
Oh, I agree completely. Certainly that is the world the groups behind this law want. I was speaking of this specific law only. In general, it never starts with death camps, gas chambers and crematory ovens. But far too often, that is where things end up. ---
**Author:** ![colinfred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colinfred/32/21338_2.png) [@colinfred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colinfred)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/166 "2025-05-05T19:21:34Z")
I have absolutely no idea whey people keep bringing up LGB into subjects that only concern the T, like a tail wagging a dog. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/167 "2025-05-05T19:23:11Z")
LGB was _always_ part of it, just hidden a bit better. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/168 "2025-05-05T19:24:15Z")
I don’t know how to respond to that. If you honestly do not understand it, you (and I mean this seriously and literally) need to study the state of the LGBTQ+ comunity in Weimar Germany and under the Nazis. You also need to study the history of the LGBTQ+ community in general. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/169 "2025-05-05T19:24:30Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > I have absolutely no idea whey people keep bringing up LGB into subjects that only concern the T, like a tail wagging a dog. Umm, because, with regard to this specific topic, there’s a history of folks wanting to ban gays and lesbians from their gender’s bathrooms/changing rooms. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/170 "2025-05-05T19:25:28Z")
This one particular aspect is just the wedge to let the rest of the nasty stuff take hold. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/171 "2025-05-05T19:26:14Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > In general, it never starts with death camps, gas chambers and crematory ovens. But far too often, that is where things end up. But we’re not supposed to mention that because it makes some people sad. Nonetheless, actual historians also make the comparison. > **[Warning from historians over government's treatment of trans people](https://www.thepinknews.com/2025/05/02/historians-trans-rights-attacks/)** > > Over 350 historians and academics have urged the government to turn back on its growing attacks on trans rights in the UK. > [@colinfred](#): > > I have absolutely no idea whey people keep bringing up LGB into subjects that only concern the T, like a tail wagging a dog. Because these things never _only_ concern the T. And the rhetoric claiming that it does, is specifically designed to weaken opposition by groups who are **all** intended targets. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/172 "2025-05-05T19:31:41Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > But we’re not supposed to mention that because it makes some people sad. > > Nonetheless, actual historians also make the comparison. A pre-emptive note- Before anybody says that making this comparison is disrespectful to Jews, I am a Jew. One of the many joys of finally decluttering was finding my box of yarmulkes, my tallis, and my Zeyde Herman’s tefilin. I also found a mezzuzah I shall mount on my doorpost as soon as I can find a few necessary items. Also, six million Jews died in the holocaust. Five million more people from groups the Nazis hated died as well. This included ‘sexual defectives’ gay men, lesbians, and trans people. Actual research on trans patients was being done. The Nazis destroyed it all. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/173 "2025-05-05T19:44:48Z")
Yes, this is not about trans people being treated now like the Nazis treated Jews. It’s about trans people being treated now like the Nazis treated trans people. We’re not remotely at the camp stage yet. And we still have time to stop it. But we’re seeing one small step at a time being taken in the wrong direction, and acknowledging what’s at the end of that road is the first step in the right one. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/174 "2025-05-06T04:44:08Z")
There’s a lot of overlap between LGB and T, in terms of both culture and the specific individuals. I know a lot of trans women who thought of themselves as gay men at first: making life difficult for trans people has a negative impact on everyone who might potentially transition in the future, and such people are disproportionately LGB. Anti-trans policies often target gender nonconformity, and gender-nonconforming people are also disproportionately LGB: the average butch lesbian is more likely to be mistaken for a man and harassed in public than the average woman. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/175 "2025-05-06T06:21:56Z")
> [@colinfred](#): > > I have absolutely no idea whey people keep bringing up LGB into subjects that only concern the T, like a tail wagging a dog. Because when you come for one of us, you come for all of us. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/176 "2025-05-06T06:40:30Z")
The obvious quote: > First they came for the Communists > And I did not speak out > Because I was not a Communist > > Then they came for the Socialists > And I did not speak out > Because I was not a Socialist > > Then they came for the trade unionists > And I did not speak out > Because I was not a trade unionist > > Then they came for the Jews > And I did not speak out > Because I was not a Jew > > Then they came for me > And there was no one left > To speak out for me History shows just how shortsighted the position of “They aren’t after _me,_ so why should _I_ care” is. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/177 "2025-05-06T06:56:42Z")
The original poem by Martin Niemöller: "Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Kommunist. Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter. Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat. Als sie die Juden einsperrten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Jude. Als sie mich holten, gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte." English translation: " When the Nazis came for the communists, I kept quiet; I wasn’t a communist. When they came for the trade unionists, I kept quiet; I wasn’t a trade unionist. When they locked up the social democrats, I kept quiet; I wasn’t a social democrat. When they locked up the Jews, I kept quiet; I wasn’t a Jew. When they came for me, there was no one left to protest." ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/178 "2025-05-06T08:53:48Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Meanwhile in the UK I don’t know what the hell happened. There was a Supreme Court judgement that sounded like it should only matter in very limited circumstances, and then suddenly they are banning trans people from toilets. I’m not a lawyer, but it makes no logical sense: the judgement was about whether ‘women’ in the Equalities Act included trans women with Gender Recognition certificates, but policies on toilets etc have always applied to all trans people, whether or not they have a GRC. Seems crazy to me. Possibly someone will have to sue to get the guidance changed back to what it was, but in the meantime it’s very difficult and distressing for trans people in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/179 "2025-05-06T09:31:17Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I don’t know what the hell happened. There was a Supreme Court judgement that sounded like it should only matter in very limited circumstances, and then suddenly they are banning trans people from toilets. I’m not a lawyer, but it makes no logical sense: the judgement was about whether ‘women’ in the Equalities Act included trans women with Gender Recognition certificates, but policies on toilets etc have always applied to all trans people, whether or not they have a GRC. The goal is persecution, so it make perfect logical sense. Bigots don’t care about the _law,_ just about hurting people, and the only reason to be hostile to trans people _is_ bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2025, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878/180 "2025-05-06T09:32:29Z")
We can thank JK Rowling for astroturfing that campaign and priming the political pumps behind it. And of course once her group got the verdict they wanted, they immediately moved on to “We need to take action against _immigrants_ because they’re a threat to women”. And who knows which group will be next? Because “We’re just poor frightened creatures” seems to work. The irony is that this approach damages women far more in the long run than all the groups they purport to be afraid of, but then it’s not like it was ever about the welfare of women in the first place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-transphobia-and-category-errors/1013878.md?page=10)