# Religion: where do we draw the line **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2021, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869 "2021-06-23T01:30:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/41 "2021-06-24T21:05:02Z")
I stopped giving to the one conglomerate charity when the head of the local chapter was revealed, in the mid '90s, to be raking in an lower/middle six-figure salary (and I believe the national leader was well into seven figures). ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/42 "2021-06-24T22:10:22Z")
Honest question here. What exactly has religion done to get you upset? If you don’t go to church, I think the worst that happens is that sometimes people knock on your door and ask you to convert to their religion, at which point you can slam the door in their face. So what is the issue? Are there some organizations not paying taxes that you believe should be paying taxes? How do others practicing religion make your life less enjoying in some ways such that we need to go with the old “not all rights are absolute” argument? (Which is typically followed by a proposal to gut the right in question) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/43 "2021-06-24T23:32:30Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Honest question here. What exactly has religion done to get you upset? I second the question. It seems OK nowadays to be a bigot towards the faithful. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2021, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/44 "2021-06-24T23:43:55Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Honest question here. What exactly has religion done to get you upset? Well, as for me, it fucked me up pretty good. A dozen years of my early life were steeped in indoctrination. It took a dozen more years to shake most of that off, but there remain scars that may never go away. It has cost me friendships, and every time the trees get wiped out for yet another house of bullshit, I have been trod upon. Most of the ways that it harms society do not affect me directly, but I live in society and do not enjoy seeing it harmed. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/45 "2021-06-25T00:26:38Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Well, as for me, it fucked me up pretty good. I’m sorry you had such a bad experience. On the one hand, for that to turn you against religion seems a little like having an abusive parent turn you against parenthood, or having a shitty school turn you against education. On the other hand, we do have systems in place to try to protect children from abusive parents or awful schools. I’m not sure what we have, or could have, to protect people, especially children, from abusive or destructive religion. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/46 "2021-06-25T10:28:03Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Honest question here. What exactly has religion done to get you upset? Honest question here. Do you believe taxes should be assessed based on how upset an entity makes someone? > [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > I second the question. It seems OK nowadays to be a bigot towards the faithful. Ending special tax treatment is not “being a bigot”. Churches want to be politically active like for-profit corporations? Fine. They can be taxed that way. Unsurprising to see conservatives wheel out the canard about “it’s bigotry if I’m treated like everyone else.” ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/47 "2021-06-25T10:45:36Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Honest question here. Do you believe taxes should be assessed based on how upset an entity makes someone? If this is just a debate on tax exempt status for churches, then this thread sure took the long way around to get there. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/48 "2021-06-25T10:52:37Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Thus, the question is, by what metric would we decide which law-abiding religious organizations are worthy of privilege (such as tax exemption) and which are not. > [@UltraVires](#): > > If this is just a debate on tax exempt status for churches, then this thread sure took the long way around to get there. It’s right there in the OP. I’m not sure what other privileges are in question, but tax exempt status was put front and center from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/49 "2021-06-25T12:17:16Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Ending special tax treatment is not “being a bigot”. Churches want to be politically active like for-profit corporations? Fine. They can be taxed that way. The phrase “the power to tax is the power to destroy” comes to mind. This came from a Supreme Court ruling against Maryland when they imposed a tax on a National Bank chartered by Congress. Chief Justice John Marshall said Maryland how no power to “retard, impede, burden, or in any manner control the operations of the constitutional laws enacted by Congress.” Like it or not, religion is specifically protected in the United States in that Congress can’t do anything to establish one or prohibit it’s free exercise. Religious organizations are not the only ones who can qualify for 501(c)(3) tax exempt status. As for religious organizations being politically active, it’ll be interesting to see how that’s tested in court. So far as I know, it’s the tax codes that prohibit churches from being politically active but if this were ever seriously challenged in court I don’t know if it would stand. It could be argued that not being able to openly endorse a candidate is a violation of the free exercise of their religion. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/50 "2021-06-25T13:09:36Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Ending special tax treatment is not “being a bigot”. Churches want to be politically active like for-profit corporations? Fine. They can be taxed that way. Please forgive me. Like many others here, I did not understand we were ranting about tax policy. I mentioned bigotry. I was recalling the sort of intolerance shown in discussions such as [**Why Do We Have to Put up with Religious People?**](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474) Perhaps we were miscommunicating. I no longer write very well. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/51 "2021-06-25T13:29:42Z")
> [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](#): > > Please forgive me. Like many others here, I did not understand we were ranting about tax policy. You guys didn’t see this in the OP? > [@eschereal](#): > > Many of us favor imposing taxes on religious institutions, because we have the massive orgs that abuse the privileges granted them in ridiculous ways that appear to be way beyond what a reasonable person would consider reasonable. > > … > > Thus, the question is, by what metric would we decide which law-abiding religious organizations are worthy of privilege (such as tax exemption) and which are not. I believe I know. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/52 "2021-06-25T13:31:15Z")
Thank you very much. How do you feel about taxing Masonic lodges, private schools and hospitals? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/53 "2021-06-25T13:45:54Z")
If they engage in political activity, then yes, tax them. Any organization that lobbies or campaigns or influences its community to vote a certain way ought to be taxed, regardless of their charitable activities. Apart from that principle, I hadn’t thought much about taxing private schools. But now that you mention it, it seems like a good idea. I’m not going to derail this thread by getting into the weeds of whataboutism, but If you’re passionate about that topic, I’d be willing to discuss it in a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/54 "2021-06-25T14:42:28Z")
Well, if we are supposed to be talking about “Where do we draw the line?” I would have thought asking about other nonprofit would be useful. In fact it did seem to be a useful question and answer. If groups dare express a political opinion you want to tax them. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/55 "2021-06-25T15:08:53Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Churches want to be politically active like for-profit corporations? Fine. They can be taxed that way. Do you believe non-profits don’t engage in political activity? The ACLU is a non-profit corporation. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/56 "2021-06-25T15:22:45Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > The ACLU is a non-profit corporation. As are, for example, NARAL and the Center for Reproductive Rights. Lots of people who are against tax-exempt organizations being politically active really mean they are opposed to tax-exempt organizations _ **with whom they disagree** _ being politically active. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/57 "2021-06-25T15:49:26Z")
There’s a fairly broad spectrum of activity that might be called “political”. Is helping the poor and disadvantaged a political activity that religious groups should be barred from? My understanding is that the line is drawn at supporting specific political candidates. They’re allowed to fight for certain issues, but not to endorse certain politicians. If you want to move the line elsewhere, talk to your representative. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/58 "2021-06-25T16:30:15Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Lots of people who are against tax-exempt organizations being politically active really mean they are opposed to tax-exempt organizations _ **with whom they disagree** _ being politically active. Bingo. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/59 "2021-06-25T19:00:13Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Lots of people who are against tax-exempt organizations being politically active really mean they are opposed to tax-exempt organizations _ **with whom they disagree** _ being politically active. Religious institutions are a unique case, though. They own the “truth”, and if you disagree with them, you are wrong – sometimes even evil. While not universally true, religion tends to enforce the practice of othering. Creating social division. The more prominent the institution, the more intense their push toward othering. They get away with this because it is religious SOP, but I guess if you consider divisiveness a good thing, then maybe it is merely a matter of opinion. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869/60 "2021-06-25T21:12:50Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Lots of people who are against tax-exempt organizations being politically active really mean they are opposed to tax-exempt organizations _ **with whom they disagree** _ being politically active. Lots of people? Can you name any in this thread? Please, do tell me what I _really_ mean. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religion-where-do-we-draw-the-line/944869.md?page=4)