# Religions and cultures with gay marriage **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 19, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296 "2012-02-19T02:25:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/1 "2012-02-19T02:25:37Z")
Got into another argument with my dad- he says he can’t believe that any previous culture or major religion anywhere has ever allowed same-sex marriage. I said, of there has to be. He said, name one. Well, the SDMB has helped me with my pointless political arguments before. I’ll bet there’s at least some, right? ---
**Author:** ![BowlOfDucks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@BowlOfDucks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BowlOfDucks)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/2 "2012-02-19T02:35:05Z")
There’s this on wikipedia > **[Same-sex marriage | History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_marriage#History)** > > A reference to marriage between same-sex couples appears in the Sifra, which was written in the 3rd century CE. The Book of Leviticus prohibited homosexual relations, and the Hebrews were warned not to "follow the acts of the land of Egypt or the acts of the land of Canaan" (Lev. 18:22, 20:13). The Sifra clarifies what these ambiguous "acts" were, and that they included marriage between same-sex couples: "A man would marry a man and a woman a woman, a man would marry a woman and her daughter, and... ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/3 "2012-02-19T02:36:51Z")
You’re not going to find it, same sex marriage in the modern sense is a very recent concern. You would be hard pressed to find references seriously advocating it even twenty years old. Thats not to say there were no long term same sex couples, they just were not open about it so the openness had to come first. You might be able to find transsexual individuals posing as the opposite sex and entering into marriage, there have been a couple of these where its a big shock to the coroner. Some cultures had a open concept of a third gender which seems to encompass both gay/lesbian, intersex, and people with gender identity issues. Some cultures have ritualized homosexual relationships, almost always they also have hetero marriage. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/4 "2012-02-19T02:40:43Z")
> [@BowlOfDucks](#): > > There’s this on wikipedia > > [Same-sex marriage - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_marriage#History) Every single mention there is either an oddity or not really marriage: > [@](#): > > The first historical mention of the performance of same-sex marriages occurred during the early Roman Empire.[57] For instance, Emperor Nero is reported to have engaged in a marriage ceremony with one of his male slaves. Emperor Elagabalus “married” a Carian slave named Hierocles.[58] It should be noted, however, that conubium existed only between a civis Romanus and a civis Romana (that is, between a male Roman citizen and a female Roman citizen), so that a so-called marriage between two Roman males (or with a slave) would have no legal standing in Roman law (apart, presumably, from the arbitrary will of the emperor in the two aforementioned cases).[59] Furthermore, "matrimonium is an institution involving a mother, mater. The idea implicit in the word is that a man takes a woman in marriage, in matrimonium ducere, so that he may have children by her. Sounds like Nero was just messing around. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/5 "2012-02-19T03:37:52Z")
What about same-sex relationships in general? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/6 "2012-02-19T03:50:34Z")
> [@grude](#): > > You’re not going to find it, same sex marriage in the modern sense is a very recent concern. You would be hard pressed to find references seriously advocating it even twenty years old. Nonsense! Forty years ago, in 1972, the Minnesota Democratic Party (DFL), by a vote of the delegates at our State Convention, added a plank to the Party Platform endorsing marriage equality. This was after one Delegate, Jack Baker (yes, the person in _Baker vs. Nelson_, the Supreme Court case) had been refused a marriage license by Minnesota Courts, and an appeal was pending before the US Supreme Court (which they declined to hear, eventually). ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/7 "2012-02-19T03:53:59Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Nonsense! > > Forty years ago, in 1972, the Minnesota Democratic Party (DFL), by a vote of the delegates at our State Convention, added a plank to the Party Platform endorsing marriage equality. This was after one Delegate, Jack Baker (yes, the person in _Baker vs. Nelson_, the Supreme Court case) had been refused a marriage license by Minnesota Courts, and an appeal was pending before the US Supreme Court (which they declined to hear, eventually). As late as the 90s in gay activism circles I remember the biggie was trying to kill sodomy legislation, gay marriage was maybe mentioned but a big issue it was not. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/8 "2012-02-19T04:07:51Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Nonsense! > > Forty years ago, in 1972, the Minnesota Democratic Party (DFL), by a vote of the delegates at our State Convention, added a plank to the Party Platform endorsing marriage equality. This was after one Delegate, Jack Baker (yes, the person in _Baker vs. Nelson_, the Supreme Court case) had been refused a marriage license by Minnesota Courts, and an appeal was pending before the US Supreme Court (which they declined to hear, eventually). In terms of the history of the institution of marriage, 40 years might as well be yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/9 "2012-02-19T04:16:12Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > What about same-sex relationships in general? Check out here for starters: > **[Homosexuality | History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#History)** > > Same-sex relations are documented throughout history and varied in acceptance depending on time and place. However, many historians and anthropologists warn against using terms like "homosexuality" to describe these practices, because that may draw false equivalencies between acts that, while technically similar, may have been viewed as completely different acts. In many cultures, same-sex relations were not always considered sexual in the same way that "reproductive" sex between men and wom Several cultures had ritualized relationships between older men and teen boys: > [@](#): > > E. E. Evans-Pritchard also recorded that male Azande warriors in the northern Congo routinely took on young male lovers between the ages of twelve and twenty, who helped with household tasks and participated in intercrural sex with their older husbands. The practice had died out by the early 20th century, after Europeans had gained control of African countries, but was recounted to Evans-Pritchard by the elders to whom he spoke.[49] > [@](#): > > The formal practice, an erotic yet often restrained relationship between a free adult male and a free adolescent, was valued for its pedagogic benefits and as a means of population control, though occasionally blamed for causing disorder. Plato praised its benefits in his early writings[54] but in his late works proposed its prohibition.[55] In the Symposium (182B-D), Plato equates acceptance of homosexuality with democracy, and its suppression with despotism, saying that homosexuality “is shameful to barbarians because of their despotic governments, just as philosophy and athletics are, since it is apparently not in best interests of such rulers to have great ideas engendered in their subjects, or powerful friendships or physical unions, all of which love is particularly apt to produce”.[47] Aristotle, in the Politics, dismissed Plato’s ideas about abolishing homosexuality (2.4); he explains that barbarians like the Celts accorded it a special honor (2.6.6), while the Cretans used it to regulate the population (2.7.5).[47] > [@](#): > > In many traditional Melanesian cultures a prepubertal boy would be paired with an older adolescent who would become his mentor and who would “inseminate” him (orally, anally, or topically, depending on the tribe) over a number of years in order for the younger to also reach puberty. Many Melanesian societies, however, have become hostile towards same-sex relationships since the introduction of Christianity by European missionaries.[76] ---
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/10 "2012-02-19T04:29:44Z")
And, well, there’s always the [gay warriors of ancient Greece](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes)… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/11 "2012-02-19T04:39:07Z")
> [@Heracles](#): > > And, well, there’s always the [gay warriors of ancient Greece](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes)… Can you quote the part where they were married? Sounds like a bunch of older men taking advantage of younger ones. > [@](#): > > The pairs consisted of the older “heníochoi”, or charioteers, and the younger “parabátai”, or companions Look, SSM is a modern concept. Trotting out every reference to homosexual relations in antiquity is just s dodge. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/12 "2012-02-19T04:52:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Look, SSM is a modern concept. Trotting out every reference to homosexual relations in antiquity is just s dodge. Not if it’s a response to the question posed in post #5… ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/13 "2012-02-19T06:12:24Z")
There have certainly been numerous non-Christian societies in which homosexual activity was either winked at or even tacitly encouraged. Gay activists have often pointed to such societies. The snag is, even in societies that had no moral objections to sodomy, people would have laughed at the idea of men marrying each other. Even in pagan societies where men could screw boys without shame, those men still married women! Were there pagan kings and emperors who engaged in gay sex? Sure- but Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar and Trajan never attempted to change the laws so that males could get married. They’d have scoffed at the very concept. They themselves would have told you “Marriage is between a man and a woman. A man has a duty to marry, to father children, and carry on his family lineage. Now, after THAT, if you want to bugger boys on the side, well, that’s YOUR affair.” ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/14 "2012-02-19T06:26:53Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > There have certainly been numerous non-Christian societies in which homosexual activity was either winked at or even tacitly encouraged. Gay activists have often pointed to such societies. > > The snag is, even in societies that had no moral objections to sodomy, people would have laughed at the idea of men marrying each other. Even in pagan societies where men could screw boys without shame, those men still married women! > > Were there pagan kings and emperors who engaged in gay sex? Sure- but Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar and Trajan never attempted to change the laws so that males could get married. They’d have scoffed at the very concept. They themselves would have told you “Marriage is between a man and a woman. A man has a duty to marry, to father children, and carry on his family lineage. Now, after THAT, if you want to bugger boys on the side, well, that’s YOUR affair.” It is critical to remember that while marriage was important, it was usually treated as a practical matter with little or no regard to romanticism. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/15 "2012-02-19T06:29:27Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > It is critical to remember that while marriage was important, it was usually treated as a practical matter with little or no regard to romanticism. Which is why gay marriage is such a recent phenomenon, its all about romantic love not social duty and producing children. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/16 "2012-02-19T08:14:00Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Every single mention there is either an oddity or not really marriage: Nope: In 342 AD Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans issued a law in the Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) prohibiting same-sex marriage in Rome and ordering execution for those so married. So before 342 AD it was legal in Rome. Direct evidence, read page 21 of this book: > **[Gay Marriage and Democracy](https://books.google.com/books?id=54MPyYkhWr0C&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=coemptio%2Bmarriage%2Bsame-sex&source=bl&ots=uKKE13IbS7&sig=E1tkNfxbcWriJSlH38oWISL8Ouw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-61AT_bhJauimQW58MXeBw&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ)** > > In this provocative new work, R. Claire Snyder argues that the fundamental principles of American democracy not only allow but require the legalization of same-sex marriage. In addition to explaining the theoretical issues at stake, the book provides... “marriages between males and between females were legal and familiar among the upper classes” ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/17 "2012-02-19T08:24:42Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Nope: In 342 AD Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans issued a law in the Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) prohibiting same-sex marriage in Rome and ordering execution for those so married. So before 342 AD it was legal in Rome. > > Direct evidence, read page 21 of this book: > [Gay Marriage and Democracy: Equality for All - Claire R. Snyder - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=54MPyYkhWr0C&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=coemptio+marriage+same-sex&source=bl&ots=uKKE13IbS7&sig=E1tkNfxbcWriJSlH38oWISL8Ouw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-61AT_bhJauimQW58MXeBw&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ) > > “marriages between males and between females were legal and familiar among the upper classes” That’s interesting and am dissapointed a book on gay marriage spends one sentence on it! Is there any particular reason why it was informal in the lower classes?(if you know more about it). ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/18 "2012-02-19T08:31:04Z")
> [@grude](#): > > That’s interesting and am dissapointed a book on gay marriage spends one sentence on it! Is there any particular reason why it was informal in the lower classes?(if you know more about it). As far as I’m aware most marriages of lower classes both mixed-sex and same sex were informal in Rome. By the time of late empire before it’s conversion to Christianity Religious marriages had fallen out of favour and most marriages were entirely secular. I think the paper the book quotes would be somewhere on this page: > **[Internet History Sourcebooks Project](https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/pwh/index-bos.asp)** Can’t see exactly which one it is. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/19 "2012-02-19T16:44:05Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Nope: In 342 AD Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans issued a law in the Theodosian Code (C. Th. 9.7.3) prohibiting same-sex marriage in Rome and ordering execution for those so married. So before 342 AD it was legal in Rome. > > Direct evidence, read page 21 of this book: > [Gay Marriage and Democracy: Equality for All - Claire R. Snyder - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=54MPyYkhWr0C&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=coemptio+marriage+same-sex&source=bl&ots=uKKE13IbS7&sig=E1tkNfxbcWriJSlH38oWISL8Ouw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-61AT_bhJauimQW58MXeBw&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ) > > “marriages between males and between females were legal and familiar among the upper classes” That book references a study by Yale professor John Boswell, who is the author of [Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe](http://www.amazon.com/Same-Sex-Unions-Premodern-Europe-Boswell/dp/0679432280). Presumably it goes into more detail on this. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296/20 "2012-02-19T16:51:30Z")
> [@grude](#): > > You might be able to find transsexual individuals posing as the opposite sex and entering into marriage, there have been a couple of these where its a big shock to the coroner. “Posing”? :rolleyes: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-and-cultures-with-gay-marriage/613296.md?page=2)