# religions that fear women **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265 "2010-02-01T17:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/21 "2010-02-01T22:19:10Z")
Congress is dominated by Christians, by the way. And the few who aren’t Christians are Jews or Muslims. I believe there is only one person in all of Congress who is a self-identified atheist. Also, Jesus didn’t throw out any laws or barriers against women. The closest he came was (allegedly) telling men not to divorce their wives to trade up. Not all ancient cultures were patriarchal, but the patriarchal ones wiped out the ones that were matriarchal or other, and those patriarchal traditions are the ones that survived to modern day. Judaism was ruthless about removing any hint of the feminine from the Divine, and destrying all temples and shrines to Yahweh’s consort/goddess, Asherah. Christianity and Islam followed suit, though Goddess worship still has a way of expressing itself through the Madonna. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/22 "2010-02-01T22:23:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I believe there is only one person in all of Congress who is a self-identified atheist. Apparently, there are at least [22 secret atheists](http://thedailyprofaner.com/2009/01/05/22-members-of-congress-are-secret-atheists/), according to a survey. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/23 "2010-02-01T22:38:02Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Apparently, there are at least [22 secret atheists](http://thedailyprofaner.com/2009/01/05/22-members-of-congress-are-secret-atheists/), according to a survey. Which if true is pretty encouraging (though personally I’m happy if they just _vote_ as atheists) - but it doesn’t _quite_ qualify it as atheist organization. Now, if they had 41%… ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/24 "2010-02-01T22:50:21Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And by identical logic, because there are more flies than humans in your house, we know that the flies are in control, bringing home the bacon and paying the bills. > > I’ve seen bad arguments before but this is ludicrous - have you never heard of _leadership_ before? Heirarchies of power? Hey, wow, 50% of the people in fundametal islamic countries are women, therefore the taliban is a feminized organization! Your analogies to what I was saying are flawed. Church is a voluntary organization. If women are much more likely to attend church than men are, it’s because women choose to attend church more than men do. Hence it’s perfectloy logical to conclude that church is a more feminized insitutition than those that are dominated by men. The same logic would not apply to a geographical unit like Afghanistan. > [@](#): > > You’ve already departed from reality too far to be debated with on an even level. From here on out I’ll just point out the high points of the hallucination. I will follow my usual policy of ignoring personal insults. > [@](#): > > Congress. Congress! You appear to be unfamiliar with the fact that in america _congress doesn’t determine its own gender composition_. If women get voted in, there’ll be women there! That has nothing to do with the debate at hand. I pointed out that Congress is mostly male. Hence those who want to give the federal government more power over people’s daily lives necessarily want to give men more power over women’s daily lives. The fact that Congress is elected doesn’t change that. > [@](#): > > This gets even more fun when we realize that congress/the american public is comparable with clergy/members. OOPS - clergies aren’t overloaded with females either, are they? What does it take to be “feminized” again? There are lots of women voters… That’s an irrelevant comparison. Congress has power over other Americans. They can pass laws and send people with guns to arrest anyone who doesn’t obey the laws. Hence it’s completely the opposite of churches, where all rules and organizing are determined collectively. A relatively low percentage of women in the clergy is as irrelevant as a relatively low percentage of men in choir or among the vergers. > [@](#): > > Any “thus” that follows from the previous self-contradictory fantasyland is sure to be tripe, and you don’t disappoint here. Putting aside that quoting Dawkins is a little like quoting Rush Limbaugh, look at your “logic” here: taking kids away from **both** religious parents is supposed to greatly increase the role _men_ play. Hmm, what? _Both_ parents would lose control over the child in this impossible scenario. It’s like you aren’t even _trying_ to connect your supposed causes and your imagined effects. Quoting Richard Dawkins is like quoting Rush Limbaugh? I guess to the extent that both actions involve quoting people, I have to agree with that. The rest of this paragraph, on the other hand, is obviously wrong. If we suppose that both parents normally play equal roles in child-rearing, that would mean that 50% of child-rearing is determined by men and 50% by women. By contrast, if we adopted Dawkins’ atheist approach to child-rearing, if would be nearly all controlled by men. Hence the Dawkins approach would lead to a vast increase in power for men, a category that coincidentally includes Richard Dawkins. In reality, of course, it’s not exactly a state secret that in average households child-rearing duties skew towards women, so his proposal would shift the power balance towards men by more than 50%. > [@](#): > > Your ignorance/selective denial of history matches your ignorance/selective denial of the rest of reality, I see. So you’re saying that my belief that Christians don’t require women outside the home to be accompanied by men and that Jews aren’t currently stoning women to death for wearing red is a sign of ignorance? Okay, then, why don’t you fight my ignorance by linking to a current news story about Jews stoning a woman to death for wearing red or Christians banning women from leaving their homes without being accompanied? I’ve already asked you once for a cite and you’ve fallen flat. If you can’t provide a cite the second time, I’ll have to conclude that you’re unable to do so. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/25 "2010-02-01T23:14:29Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Your analogies to what I was saying are flawed. Church is a voluntary organization. If women are much more likely to attend church than men are, it’s because women choose to attend church more than men do. Hence it’s perfectloy logical to conclude that church is a more feminized insitutition than those that are dominated by men. The same logic would not apply to a geographical unit like Afghanistan. The fly analogy works perfectly, and underscores the ludicrousness of your position - specifically you are equating _voluntary attendance_ with _authority_. This is, of course, nonsense. In most churches there is a hard line between those who decide policy, and everyone else, who get policies dictated _to_ them. The women are on the dictatee side of the line. This destroys your position, whether you admit it or not. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I will follow my usual policy of ignoring personal insults. That wasn’t a personal insult - I was insulting your _arguments_. Which are definitely insultworthy. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > That has nothing to do with the debate at hand. I pointed out that Congress is mostly male. Hence those who want to give the federal government more power over people’s daily lives necessarily want to give men more power over women’s daily lives. The fact that Congress is elected doesn’t change that. I pointed out that clergies are mostly male. Hence those who want to give the church more power over people’s daily lives necessarily want to give men more power over women’s daily lives. The fact that clergy _aren’t_ elected further annihilates your position that the sheep are in charge of the sheperds. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > That’s an irrelevant comparison. Congress has power over other Americans. They can pass laws and send people with guns to arrest anyone who doesn’t obey the laws. Hence it’s completely the opposite of churches, where all rules and organizing are determined collectively. A relatively low percentage of women in the clergy is as irrelevant as a relatively low percentage of men in choir or among the vergers. “where all rules and organizing are determined collectively.” Uh-huh. Also, helicopters are excellent for personal transportation because when you get to your destination, you can fold them up and they fit neatly in your pocket! > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Quoting Richard Dawkins is like quoting Rush Limbaugh? I guess to the extent that both actions involve quoting people, I have to agree with that. > > The rest of this paragraph, on the other hand, is obviously wrong. If we suppose that both parents normally play equal roles in child-rearing, that would mean that 50% of child-rearing is determined by men and 50% by women. By contrast, if we adopted Dawkins’ atheist approach to child-rearing, if would be nearly all controlled by men. Hence the Dawkins approach would lead to a vast increase in power for men, a category that coincidentally includes Richard Dawkins. In reality, of course, it’s not exactly a state secret that in average households child-rearing duties skew towards women, so his proposal would shift the power balance towards men by more than 50%. I’ve never read Dawkins, since I’m not all _that_ interested in the views of extremists. But frankly I don’t _believe_ that he asserted that women wouldn’t be allowed to be a part of whatever government childraising program you imagine he’s imagining. Plus I’ll just add, your numbers here are _completely_ made up. Good show! > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > So you’re saying that my belief that Christians don’t require women outside the home to be accompanied by men and that Jews aren’t currently stoning women to death for wearing red is a sign of ignorance? Okay, then, why don’t you fight my ignorance by linking to a current news story about Jews stoning a woman to death for wearing red or Christians banning women from leaving their homes without being accompanied? I’ve already asked you once for a cite and you’ve fallen flat. If you can’t provide a cite the second time, I’ll have to conclude that you’re unable to do so. You responded to: > [@me](#): > > As to the OP, I think that what you’re seeing is the result of the fact that societies in general used to be a lot more explicitly male-centric, and religion has merely codified and carried forward these inclinations into places where the rest of the culture has largely abandoned them. The fact that you spattered your response with random spewage and calls for irrelevent cites that had no bearing on the subject doesn’t change how wrong you are. Nice try, though. ETA: Oh, and please provide a cite that atheists eat babies while worshipping large cheese-demons. If you don’t, I’ll have to conclude that you’re unable to do so. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/26 "2010-02-02T13:30:17Z")
It’s not religion _or_ genes. It is societies (largely agricultural) where property is passed down through male blood lines. In these cultures, it is important that a man can be sure his son is his- and one way to do this is to make sure your wife isn’t having sex with anyone else. Religion can be an easy way of enforcing this, but the same thing would exist even without religion. In cultures with different social arrangements, including our own, you see different patterns. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/27 "2010-02-02T13:44:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not all ancient cultures were patriarchal, but the patriarchal ones wiped out the ones that were matriarchal or other, and those patriarchal traditions are the ones that survived to modern day. What matriarchal societies did patriarchal societies wipe out? Because as near as I can tell nobody really has any evidence of a matriarchal society ever existing. Marija Gimbutas has her theory about the Kurgen invasion of Europe but it’s based on pretty shaky evidence. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/28 "2010-02-02T13:50:19Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > ETA: Oh, and please provide a cite that atheists eat babies while worshipping large cheese-demons. Well, come on. If we worshipped cheese-gods, we couldn’t call ourselves atheists anymore, now could we? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/29 "2010-02-02T13:52:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Well, come on. If we worshipped cheese-gods, we couldn’t call ourselves atheists anymore, now could we? And if they didn’t serve babies we wouldn’t go to the meetings. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/30 "2010-02-02T14:23:56Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You’ve already departed from reality too far to be debated with on an even level. **begbert2** , you know the rules - ‘attack the post, not the poster.’ This is a formal warning not to do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/31 "2010-02-02T14:51:05Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > What matriarchal societies did patriarchal societies wipe out? Because as near as I can tell nobody really has any evidence of a matriarchal society ever existing. Marija Gimbutas has her theory about the Kurgen invasion of Europe but it’s based on pretty shaky evidence. > > Odesio I don’t know. I was thinking in terms of religion. Religions centered on goddess worship were wiped out by the Abrahamics. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/32 "2010-02-02T15:21:22Z")
> [@](#): > > As to the OP, I think that what you’re seeing is the result of the fact that societies in general used to be a lot more explicitly male-centric, and religion has merely codified and carried forward these inclinations into places where the rest of the culture has largely abandoned them. If you wish to criticize something about the religions, you would probably be more correct to criticize their general rigidity and reluctance to adapt to modern cultural norms, than to focus on the specific instance of their lack of gender equality. Pretty much what I was going to say. Society as a whole used to oppress women. Christianity, for example, used to be considered egalitarian towards women because it would treat them as second-class citizens - at a time when they were generally treated as property. But society moves on and religions tend to maintain their traditions. Nowadays, men and women are regarded as equals in secular society so a religion that treats women as second-class citizens is less egalitarian than the society it’s in. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/33 "2010-02-02T17:02:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t know. I was thinking in terms of religion. Religions centered on goddess worship were wiped out by the Abrahamics. As were religions not centered on goddess worship. The Abrahamic religions don’t tend to be very tolerant of non-Abrahamic religions in general. But I don’t know if societies that worshiped goddesses were any less patriarchal or discriminatory than societies that worshiped gods. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/34 "2010-02-02T17:09:22Z")
> [@albi](#): > > I am puzzled by the fact that jews muslims christians and other fundamental wierdos seem to fear women forcing them to wear approved clothing not allowing them out without a male keeper denying entry to the priesthood keeping women separated from men in the act of worship some jewish sects apparently stone women for praying in public or even for wearing the colour red the list of oppressive actions goes on and on. > Why this fear of women? Here’s something you may not realize, or that you may not have thought of: In most of the religions you regard as “patriarchal,” it’s the WOMEN who teach the kids the rules of the faith, and enforce them. And it’s typically the WOMEN who insist on the strictest interpretation and enforcement of the rules against “indecency.” In Muslim countries, it’s frequently the WOMEN who’ll scream bloody murder if they see a girl exposing too much flesh. In a Southern town, it’s the church ladies who’ll be out in force protesting if “dirty” books are available at a school library. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/35 "2010-02-02T17:14:17Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Here’s something you may not realize, or that you may not have thought of: > > In most of the religions you regard as “patriarchal,” it’s the WOMEN who teach the kids the rules of the faith, and enforce them. And it’s typically the WOMEN who insist on the strictest interpretation and enforcement of the rules against “indecency.” > > In Muslim countries, it’s frequently the WOMEN who’ll scream bloody murder if they see a girl exposing too much flesh. > > In a Southern town, it’s the church ladies who’ll be out in force protesting if “dirty” books are available at a school library. And they do _all_ of these things to appease the male elders who make the rules in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/36 "2010-02-02T17:16:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And they do _all_ of these things to appease the male elders who make the rules in the first place. In a word, bull. In any Southern fundamnetalist church, you’ll find that it’s the women who are dragging their men and their kids to services. Not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/37 "2010-02-02T17:20:36Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > As were religions not centered on goddess worship. The Abrahamic religions don’t tend to be very tolerant of non-Abrahamic religions in general. But I don’t know if societies that worshiped goddesses were any less patriarchal or discriminatory than societies that worshiped gods. Perhaps, but not especially relevant to my point that patriarchal anachronisms exist in modern religious fundamentalist traditions because it is embedded in the archaic scripture that fundamentalists (by definition) revere as authoritative. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/38 "2010-02-02T17:21:51Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > In a word, bull. > > In any Southern fundamnetalist church, you’ll find that it’s the women who are dragging their men and their kids to services. Not the other way around. Yup. And who taught them that this was their proper and Biblical place in life? The male preacher. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/39 "2010-02-02T17:25:23Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Here’s something you may not realize, or that you may not have thought of: > > In most of the religions you regard as “patriarchal,” it’s the WOMEN who teach the kids the rules of the faith, and enforce them. And it’s typically the WOMEN who insist on the strictest interpretation and enforcement of the rules against “indecency.” > > In Muslim countries, it’s frequently the WOMEN who’ll scream bloody murder if they see a girl exposing too much flesh. > > In a Southern town, it’s the church ladies who’ll be out in force protesting if “dirty” books are available at a school library. When I lived in West Africa, I learned from a medical doctor serving as a missionary that the practice of clitorectomy was more fiercely defended by tribal women than men. I wouldn’t say that therefore made it a non-sexist practice, only that women can be enculturated to believe their own self-worth and honor depends on submitting to male authority. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265/40 "2010-02-02T17:25:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t know. I was thinking in terms of religion. Religions centered on goddess worship were wiped out by the Abrahamics. If we look around the world and through history, I certainly don’t see a strong correlation between Abrahamic religion (or monotheism) and patriarchy. India, Japan, China seem to be pretty patriarchal, right? Classical civilization wasn’t noted for gender equality, neither were northern European paganism. It seems to me that hunter-gatherer societies tend to have more gender equality than agriculturalists, but that’s because they have more equality in general–there’s no opportunity to accumulate the sorts of surpluses that lead to social stratification. But the correlation between Abrahamic religion and patriarchy is simply false. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religions-that-fear-women/527265.md?page=3)