# Religious Accommodation {Christian postal worker case} **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2023, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267 "2023-01-15T17:56:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/141 "2023-06-30T01:45:37Z")
Nitpick: the postal worker hasn’t actually won the case. He can now take it back to the lower court and re-argue it under this broader standard. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/142 "2023-06-30T01:48:38Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > With respect to the First Liberty Institute, the de minimus standard already made it difficult for employers to refuse accomodations for dress or prayer breaks and I don’t expect this decision to have an impact on those situations. Even regarding taking off holy days. Every Sunday (or Friday or Saturday) is a lot, and it seems likely many employees will have to be more accommodating. But I’ve never worked at a place that didn’t accommodate scattered holidays. Most employers with more than a handful of employees have accommodated those for ages. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/143 "2023-06-30T10:46:17Z")
Sunday is 1/7th of the days, or 14%. In the 24/7/365 airline business we have a hell of a lot more than 14% of people in each workgroup who could claim some flavor of Xian religion and demand Sunday off. That would be disastrously bad for the ordinary shift workers who go home every night. For the crew force, which often works 2 to 5 days straight out of town, that would mean they could no longer leave town if it entailed being gone over Sunday. For round numbers, 60% of our total workload touches a Sunday. When the US government launched their ill-fated COVID vaccination mandate for all major government contractors and transportation providers, one of the exemptions available was a religious one. About 30% of our people claimed that exemption, which the company granted without issue or investigation. The religion most of them shared was actually FauxNewsianism, regardless of what mainstream name they put on their exemption application. This was all rendered moot when some court someplace put it all on hold, and there it sits today. But it clearly shows that when a benefit is available for claiming something inherently unprovable, a lot of people will claim that benefit. In the paragraphs above there’s nothing magic about Sunday specifically; the same problems would obtain if everyone was able to claim Tuesday off. Except that it’s the special day of the US majority religion. Now add in a few other minority religions that treat Fri or Sat as special (or a 24-hour period that’s not a calendar day), and the havoc grows exponentially. We’re a big enough operation that giving almost any one worker any given day off is negligible and easily accommodated. But when a hefty fraction of everybody does that we have a MAJOR problem. How to decide which employees are more deserving than others? Who will decide? That way lies madness. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/144 "2023-06-30T11:27:33Z")
The postal worker hasn’t won, he just has a different standard (not undue hardship, rather than, de minimis). It sounds like, for an airline, giving every Sunday off is probably a huge burden, and would be judged an undue hardship. Of course, there will probably be a suit… ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/145 "2023-06-30T11:34:58Z")
Agree. The issue IMO is whether the standard will be _de minimis_ per worker, or _de minimis_ when lot fo folks want this. At the limit, we could end up returning to a world like Chick-fil-a and Hobby Lobby inhabit, where the USA is closed on Sundays for want of enough workers willing to work those days. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/146 "2023-07-01T15:46:31Z")
72 posts were split to a new topic: [Well, it looks like if you run a business, it’s A-okay to discriminate against certain customers based on your religious beliefs…](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/well-it-looks-like-if-you-run-a-business-it-s-a-okay-to-discriminate-against-certain-customers-based-on-your-religious-beliefs/986409) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/151 "2023-06-30T15:22:12Z")
Say hello to a return of sundown towns, only for LGBTQ+ people. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/158 "2023-06-30T16:07:04Z")
Maybe @Hamlet can enlighten us. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2023, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/172 "2023-06-30T17:39:09Z")
Honestly, I find @doreen’s point to be valid, previously I worked dual-weekend days because of the shift-differential, although current scheduling needs are quite different. Going forward though, I’d probably benefit from _claiming_ (extra emphasis) my religious needs as a Jew (even if I’m truly almost entirely secular) - being able to say I need off an hour before sundown (drive time you know) Friday through Saturday year round would mean with fixed schedules, they’d likely just give me those two days off. And a LOT of the time I was working in customer-facing businesses, they HATED giving two days off in a row, especially if one of them included a weekend day. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/220 "2023-07-01T15:39:24Z")
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**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/221 "2023-07-01T15:40:43Z")
**Moderating:** Reviewing the Hijack of the thread. Moved massive Hijack to new thread. # KEEP THIS THREAD on the Postal Worker case ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2023, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/222 "2023-07-01T15:49:07Z")
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**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2023, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/223 "2023-07-27T21:44:14Z")
This has been explained multiple times. You decide it on a case by case basis, looking at the actual conditions in the real world. You don’t decide it by pearl-clutching slippery slope arguments. If a few employees don’t want to work on Sundays, the airlines should have to accommodate them, because that is reasonable. In the highly unlikely scenario where enough people don’t want to work on Sundays that the business couldn’t effectively operate, then it’s no longer reasonable and they don’t have to accommodate them. (As an aside, fuck the idea that allowing people to refuse to be vaccinated against a deadly disease is “reasonable”) ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/224 "2023-07-27T21:48:40Z")
As to the OP, I find it very hard to imagine that, for an outfit as large as the US Postal Service, allowing some tiny fraction of its employees to take Sunday off would meet even a _de minimis_ standard, and I think the Court ruled correctly. (Notices “26 days later” tag above my last post) Umm…it’s OK for me to do this because I practice voodoo! ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2023, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/225 "2023-07-27T21:51:43Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > There was some recent controversy over a Reform Jewish rabbi’s lawsuit challenging Florida’s new abortion ban, when a law professor argued that only certain Jews could legitimately claim to have a “sincerely held belief” in their religion’s right to abortion: But as long as I’m zombifying, I just have to post this choice quote from QQ’s article about the law professor’s arguments. > Instead, he focuses on judging the religiosity of various sects — including proposing the idea that, since Judaism lacks a clear concept of hell, the consequences of breaking religious laws are less motivating than they are to Christians, meaning that breaking them does not cause true distress. Seriously?? Fuck. That. Shit. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2023, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/226 "2023-07-27T23:14:05Z")
Which demonstrates overall that according any value whatsoever in civil law to anything anyone claims is a matter of religion is simply nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/227 "2023-07-28T13:46:57Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > > Instead, he focuses on judging the religiosity of various sects — including proposing the idea that, since Judaism lacks a clear concept of hell, the consequences of breaking religious laws are less motivating than they are to Christians, meaning that breaking them does not cause true distress. > > Seriously?? Fuck. That. Shit. This is why we should all clearly understand that all the recent court rulings and laws to “respect religion” really only mean “respect mainstream Christianity”, and aren’t going to help members of any other faith. In fact, they may be turned around to attack members of other faiths. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/228 "2023-07-28T14:00:42Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I’d call it “tough luck”, but it also presents an opportunity for one to show true courage by quitting that job rather than violating one’s PERSONAL beliefs. I think that’s BS. For some people their job is a commodity. Have an issue with being a barista at Starbucks? Go to Ziggys or Dutch Bros. But here you are asking a person that took a job with an understanding that accommodating his religious beliefs was _built into the system_ and because now they want to change the rules on him, it is up to him to give up a job that he probably enjoys, has great pay and a great pension? I think the 1st Amendment implies that you should not have to give up so much to maintain your religious convictions when your company changes the rules midgame. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/229 "2023-07-28T14:04:31Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I think the 1st Amendment implies that you should not have to give up so much to maintain your religious convictions when your company changes the rules midgame. > **Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.** So no, it doesn’t. It is about what the Government shall do, **not** what a company shall do. It would be a big stretch even for a Government Job. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267/230 "2023-07-28T14:09:56Z")
In the US world of at-will work, the idea that anyone has a property right to their job or to its provisions not being subject to random adverse change at the whim of management is simply laughable. If we were a civilized 21st Century country it would not be that way. But it is that way. Because we are not a civilized 21st Century country. Instead we are a sorta-post-feudal 18th century mercantilist / planter nation. Subject to periodic bouts of semi-theocracy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-accommodation-christian-postal-worker-case/978267.md?page=9)