# Religious and atheist Dopers: What makes you so sure? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 1, 2021, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328 "2021-06-01T03:12:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/121 "2021-06-02T03:23:32Z")
I grew up in a family that was culturally Jewish in the sense of celebrating the major holidays in some way, but was essentially atheist…and that atheism always made sense to me. (When I was in Hebrew School, probably about 8 years old, we were reading Genesis and I made sure to make it very clear to the teacher that I didn’t believe a word of this nonsense!) My attitude can best be summed up to be that it always seemed infinitely more logical to me that man created God than that God created man (a point that others have made in other words). And, in particular, I just hate the parochial attitude of people who grow up in some religion and believe that it is the one true religion and all the other ones are nonsense. I don’t know how else to describe that than being utterly and completely parochial, immature, and ridiculous. (I have much more sympathy for people who have more general spiritual beliefs that are not specifically tied to one religion or who do adopt one religion, including the one that they are raised in, but not in a fundamentalist way that says “My religion is right and yours is wrong.”) In fact, I guess I am strongly averse to parochialism in all of its forms even about less profound things, such as tastes in food. I.e., I tend to be proud of the fact that my food dislikes are not dictated by my culture…In fact, I tend to dislike a lot of foods, like cottage cheese and sour cream, that are staples of my Eastern European Jewish ancestry (and that my parents enjoyed)…and I enjoy eating things like sushi and raw beef that are considered to be very acceptable food dislikes in our American culture. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/122 "2021-06-02T03:35:21Z")
Good luck with that. People often say that this message board has strong political biases, but what I think is even truer is that it has strong atheistic biases. (Witness the fact that I read an entire post here by Sam Stone and could not find one thing he said that I did not agree with…Not sure that has ever happened before!) And, I think even the theistic minority here is much less likely to be of the fundamentalist “my religion is right and the others are wrong” variety. That sort of point-of-view just cannot withstand the kind of scrutiny and “show your cites” attitude that prevails on the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/123 "2021-06-02T03:36:25Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I would say the different definitions are not so much between “man on the street” and “original or formal”. > The difference is more between “The theist on the street when talking at or about atheists” and “Atheists talking about themselves”. I disagree. This thread can be my cite, because several people here have replied with words to the effect of “I wouldn’t go as far as atheism, but I am not convinced by the evidence / arguments for god”. Heck, there’s one right now I need to reply to: > [@cochrane](#): > > I’m not confused. I’m sure that I don’t know enough to absolutely say one way or another. I think you’re confused about _what atheism means_. A _gnostic_ atheist would be sure there is no god. But the position that you’re describing yourself as is still a flavor of atheism, agnostic atheism, also known as “weak” atheism. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/124 "2021-06-02T03:47:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > To me, this is answering the mystery by adding more mystery to the mystery. Yep! Our whole universe and existence is an arbitrary construct, one way or another. Completely absurd that something this complicated exists… one way or another. As I say, an outsider with no frame of reference to how we live, a consciousness fathomable but with a completely different basis, would have to make a tremendous leap of faith to believe that we and our universe could possibly exist. Getting this on point a bit. The posts on this thread are nearly all made by atheists. I’m not an atheist. Effectively chose not to be one. Grew up with religious background, still attend church. I like the tradition. I need a language, frame, identity in this life. Atheism never offered that. I never found it appealing. Theist and atheist, we’re all going to lose it all sooner or later. Everything, all of our identities and thoughts can’t be taken with us, wherever they go or don’t go. So establishing some beachhead of facts on this topic was never all that important to me. If time is infinite, then anything that can happen in our universe has already happened infinite times. So we’ve all had this conversation before. See y’all again in a quintillion years or so. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/125 "2021-06-02T03:47:59Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I disagree. This thread can be my cite, because several people here have replied with words to the effect of “I wouldn’t go as far as atheism, but I am not convinced by the evidence / arguments for god”. Which basically supports my point. Think about it more. Edited to add: I suppose what I should have said is "The difference is more between “The _self-described non-atheist_ on the street when talking at or about atheists” and “Atheists talking about themselves”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/126 "2021-06-02T03:54:47Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > Yep! Our whole universe and existence is an arbitrary construct, one way or another. Completely absurd that something this complicated exists… one way or another. > > As I say, an outsider with no frame of reference to how we live, a consciousness fathomable but with a completely different basis, would have to make a tremendous leap of faith to believe that we and our universe could possibly exist. All _I_ am saying is that using “God lives outside the universe” to justify your religious beliefs just doesn’t cut the mustard. What does it even mean, to “live outside the universe”? I see this term used far too many times by people as a way to kick that can further down the road-they usually have no idea what it could possibly mean but it sounds scientific. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/127 "2021-06-02T03:57:06Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Which basically supports my point. Think about it more. Instead of me thinking about it, why don’t you explain how it supports your point? Because you said that the whole “atheism = certainty that there are no gods” thing is only the definition used by theists describing atheists. But in this thread, we’ve seen at least half a dozen people claim lack of belief in gods _and_ that they are not atheist. This is a _refutation_ of what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/128 "2021-06-02T04:01:30Z")
Sorry I edited and have confused things. My focus was really on the latter category rather than the former. That is, I was focused more on what I perceive to be inaccuracy in your “original or formal” categorisation than your “man on the street” categorisation. I shouldn’t have said “The theist on the street when talking at or about atheists”. I should have said “The _self-described non-atheist_ on the street when talking at or about atheists” ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/129 "2021-06-02T04:33:07Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > > [@Princhester](#): > > > > I would say the different definitions are not so much between “man on the street” and “original or formal”. > > The difference is more between “The theist on the street when talking at or about atheists” and “Atheists talking about themselves”. > > I disagree. This thread can be my cite, because several people here have replied with words to the effect of “I wouldn’t go as far as atheism, but I am not convinced by the evidence / arguments for god”. > Heck, there’s one right now I need to reply to: > > > [@cochrane](#): > > > > I’m not confused. I’m sure that I don’t know enough to absolutely say one way or another. > > I think you’re confused about _what atheism means_. > A _gnostic_ atheist would be sure there is no god. But the position that you’re describing yourself as is still a flavor of atheism, agnostic atheism, also known as “weak” atheism. You don’t need to reply to me at all. I’m not confused about what I believe, and I’m not going to let others define it for me. Having said that, I’m going to bow out from replying further and just read this thread from now on. Frankly, I’m getting a little aggravated by you continuing to tell me what you think I am confused about. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/130 "2021-06-02T04:35:22Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Look at that word, “supernatural.” As far as I am concerned, it just means “outside of reality.” Interestingly, I’m theistic and I agree 100%. If it is divine, it is natural for something to be divine, and it’s part of what is real. The nature of reality in its entirety may end up looking less mundane, but it’s all right here and you should not have to be a theistic person to see it; it’s more like, having seen it, you’d be inclined to see it as awesome. Maybe you still would not utilize theistic terms – no built-in reason why you’d decide that your experience necessarily overlaps with what some other humans experienced and gave the name of “God” (among others of that ilk). But in whatever language, you’d appreciate what you were perceiving. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/131 "2021-06-02T04:47:47Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Maybe you missed the “any god” part of the definition. Huh? The words “any god” do not appear in the text which I quoted and was responding to. Or any other part of that post or the post which it was a response to. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/132 "2021-06-02T04:49:11Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > I’m not confused about what I believe, and I’m not going to let others define it for me. Nobody is telling you what you believe or defining your beliefs. What they are telling you is that what _you say about your own beliefs_ fits a certain definition of a certain word. The problem with this whole topic is that it is highly political and people don’t want to use certain words about themselves even though they fit the definition of those words, because of their perception of the social connotations of those words. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/133 "2021-06-02T04:55:44Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > If it is divine, it is natural for something to be divine, and it’s part of what is real. The nature of reality in its entirety may end up looking less mundane, but it’s all right here and you should not have to be a theistic person to see it; it’s more like, having seen it, you’d be inclined to see it as awesome. Maybe you still would not utilize theistic terms – no built-in reason why you’d decide that your experience necessarily overlaps with what some other humans experienced and gave the name of “God” (among others of that ilk). But in whatever language, you’d appreciate what you were perceiving. I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be disagreeable, but most of this is just white noise to me. I cannot parse it into anything that makes sense at all, let alone as a response to what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/134 "2021-06-02T04:56:10Z")
This conversation has been had before on this board with no resolution. I think “atheist” carries some connotations/baggage, particularly in the USA, that leads some non believers to be uncomfortable with being labeled “atheist”. The discussion is about the definition of “atheist” but it is perceived as being a discussion about the actual beliefs of the non believer. It becomes an impassable road block. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/135 "2021-06-02T04:56:36Z")
If it exists, then it is something rather than nothing. They would understand that something exists, because they exist. They may very well exist in a universe so alien to ours that it is incomprehensible, but your claim was not originally that they would not understand the laws of our universe, but that existence itself is irrational. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/136 "2021-06-02T05:26:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Huh? The words “any god” do not appear in the text which I quoted and was responding to. Or any other part of that post or the post which it was a response to. Way back in post 13 (or so) I said > Atheist here. I’m sure that I’m an atheist using the correct definition of not having any god beliefs. As for believing that there is no god, it depends on the god. I didn’t think I needed to repeat it everywhere. In any case, I think just about everyone lacks belief in at least one god, so atheism would be a meaningless term if it meant lacking some god belief. On the other hand, someone believing in Zeus wouldn’t be an atheist, even if they lacked belief in our current god. I hope that is clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/137 "2021-06-02T05:32:08Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > This conversation has been had before on this board with no resolution. I think “atheist” carries some connotations/baggage, particularly in the USA, that leads some non believers to be uncomfortable with being labeled “atheist”. The discussion is about the definition of “atheist” but it is perceived as being a discussion about the actual beliefs of the non believer. It becomes an impassable road block. I agree, bur remember that in some parts of the world being an atheist can get you killed. Here it might get you ostracized in certain parts of the country. Lots of people accept any religion, just not no religion. Reminds me of when I was a kid a long, long time ago when gay men were “confirmed bachelors” which explained their lack of interest in women. For lots of atheists “I’m not that interested in religion” plays the same role. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/138 "2021-06-02T05:44:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I didn’t think I needed to repeat it everywhere. Being as I was responding to a different post by a different person, why do you feel I should have addressed something from your post? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/139 "2021-06-02T05:53:24Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > But there is, whether you believe in it or not. > > Not giving a rat’s ass is a wholly reasonable and rational option.\* > > \*or in classical Doper usage, _cromulent_ . Do you have a belief in a god or gods? There are only two states of belief possible either you have or you haven’t. You may not care but even so you fit into one of those two states. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328/140 "2021-06-02T06:07:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Is a person an atheist if they don’t believe in the divine nature of Zeus? If they have a belief in a god or gods then no. If they reject all other gods as they do with Zeus then yes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-and-atheist-dopers-what-makes-you-so-sure/943328.md?page=8)