# Religious Dopers: When Do You Let Your Kids Opt Out **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 25, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624 "2019-07-25T17:44:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/61 "2019-08-01T19:09:00Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If it’s _anything_ like any church service I’m aware of, it’s incredibly weaksauce family time. Sit next to one another, don’t interact, listen to some dude talk. (Or _don’t_ listen, ignore the family, and read something more fun.) Then afterwards maybe break up into separate meetings where the family isn’t together at all. > > I find it hard to credit “family time” as the real reason you want to drag your kid to this particular meeting. > > (For the record, I feel “watching a movie together” to also be incredibly weaksause family time, with the only salvation being what you do when you’re _not_ watching the movie, before or afterward. And if the person you’re with hates every part of the ‘movie’, that bodes ill for the after-‘movie’ discussion.) Why would you think that one would not engage in conversation regarding the lectionary texts for the week (before or after service), the sermon that the pastor delivered, the hymns played, etc? Don’t collective family experiences include discussion, questions, conversations about what occurred? Does religious activity for you only equal the one hour time you spend in the physical church building? FWIW, I tend to have the best discussions after movies I hate, especially if the other person liked the movie. Provides a better back and forth than “that movie was awesome!” “I agree” (ok, some may result in a deeper philosophical discussion). > [@](#): > > In my experience, when a kid is at a “family time”-type event, they’re not usually allowed to ignore everybody and read. If that’s happening at church, then it’s probably not family time - the only plausible explanation is that you expect them to get stuff out of the experience by _osmosis_ (or divine intervention, I suppose). I’d not be happy if my kid did it mind, but some of those kids actually got quite a bit out of it. One of them decided not to get confirmed because she didn’t believe in God (and was able to give a non-confirmation speech regarding that), but still was able to tell you some pretty insightful stuff about what was going on in church that day even though she was reading. Osmosis does occur. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/62 "2019-08-01T19:20:14Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Why would you think that one would not engage in conversation regarding the lectionary texts for the week (before or after service), the sermon that the pastor delivered, the hymns played, etc? Don’t collective family experiences include discussion, questions, conversations about what occurred? > > Does religious activity for you only equal the one hour time you spend in the physical church building? > > FWIW, I tend to have the best discussions after movies I hate, especially if the other person liked the movie. Provides a better back and forth than “that movie was awesome!” “I agree” (ok, some may result in a deeper philosophical discussion). > > I’d not be happy if my kid did it mind, but some of those kids actually got quite a bit out of it. One of them decided not to get confirmed because she didn’t believe in God (and was able to give a non-confirmation speech regarding that), but still was able to tell you some pretty insightful stuff about what was going on in church that day even though she was reading. Osmosis does occur. It’s kind of funny. I’m an atheist (it was how I was born), and yet I totally agree with what you’ve said about “family time”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/63 "2019-08-01T19:33:37Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > It’s kind of funny. I’m an atheist (it was how I was born), and yet I totally agree with what you’ve said about “family time”. 🙂 Thanks! 😃 And, to be honest, I’d be disappointed if a future kid of mine didn’t push back somewhat on what the texts were or the sermon was. Some of the texts are hard and need to be discussed and considered. That’d be great brunch conversation (though only the adults get the Bloody Mary’s, kid 😉 ). ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/64 "2019-08-01T21:00:03Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Why would you think that one would not engage in conversation regarding the lectionary texts for the week (before or after service), the sermon that the pastor delivered, the hymns played, etc? Don’t collective family experiences include discussion, questions, conversations about what occurred? And here I thought we were talking about a kid who thought the whole kit, caboodle, and cart it rode in on was the stupidest pile of shit that was ever shat. There would be no discussions of lectionary texts. There would no discussion of the sermon. There would be no discussion of the hymns. Or if there _was_ discussion, it would be the kind of discussion that would make you angry and defensive and lead you to do things that would drive even more wedges between the members of the family. Seriously, the _only_ way I can make my mom angry and irrational is to discuss religious subjects with her. And if she’s not immune, neither are you. These are not the kind of collective family experiences you want. Trust me; I know. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Does religious activity for you only equal the one hour time you spend in the physical church building? Religious activity for _me_ equals a massive amount of time flushed down a very stinky toilet - tempered for the nontrivial stretches of time I spent utterly dead to the (stinky) world around me due to being enclosed in a book orders of magnitude better than anything going on around me. I concede that not everybody has the same experiences as me. (But some do.) > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > FWIW, I tend to have the best discussions after movies I hate, especially if the other person liked the movie. Provides a better back and forth than “that movie was awesome!” “I agree” (ok, some may result in a deeper philosophical discussion). You haven’t tried this with religion. Religion is different. People invest their _lives_ in their religion. Attacks on the religion are attacks on _them_. And people aren’t stupid - even the simplest, most innocuous of probing questions are interpreted as attacks and met with instant defensiveness and hostility. If I ever wanted to _destroy_ a friendship with somebody, I’d dismantle their religion in front of them. There are only, like seven movie franchises with fans as fervent as religious people. (Okay, maybe nine.) > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I’d not be happy if my kid did it mind, but some of those kids actually got quite a bit out of it. One of them decided not to get confirmed because she didn’t believe in God (and was able to give a non-confirmation speech regarding that), but still was able to tell you some pretty insightful stuff about what was going on in church that day even though she was reading. Osmosis does occur. Osmosis occurs to the willing. The rest either completely shut it out (some books really are _that good_), or sit there silently absorbing how manifestly stupid and _insane_ everyone around them is. Manifestly including their parents. I’m all for family activities. I’ll completely disrupt my schedule and take time off work for family activities. But church-as-I-know-it absolutely is _not_ a family activity - and the osmosis that’s the _actual_ reason you want them there doesn’t always work as you might expect. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/65 "2019-08-01T21:14:42Z")
It depends if they have a strong salvation experience. Oh I agree to go to church “just because” doesnt make sense but if you truly believe and have had a personal relationship with God, then you WANT to be at church. It’s totally normal for a kid to grow up with different opinions and values of their parents. As for atheists, I personally have met few who proudly proclaim it and most of those I’ve had good conversations with. I personally try to learn about other peoples beliefs, even if it is atheism, and try to understand them. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/66 "2019-08-01T21:27:56Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I personally try to learn about other peoples beliefs, even if it is atheism, and try to understand them. For day to day stuff I imagine they’re all the same. There’s decent people who don’t wear their religion on their sleeve because they’re secure enough spiritually, and there are atheists who don’t talk about religion because it genuinely never occurs to them to talk about something they don’t believe is real…and then there are the proselytizers on both sides. Nobody likes _them_ very much, and it has only to do with their belief that they have a right to tell someone else what to think. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/67 "2019-08-01T21:28:02Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > It depends if they have a strong salvation experience. Oh I agree to go to church “just because” doesnt make sense but if you truly believe and have had a personal relationship with God, then you WANT to be at church. > > It’s totally normal for a kid to grow up with different opinions and values of their parents. Interesting. So, if a kid never has a strong salvation experience, you’ll never force them go to church? And of course if they have such an experience, you won’t _have_ to force them, because they’ll want to go. So there would be no circumstances at all when you’d force a kid to go to church? > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > As for atheists, I personally have met few who proudly proclaim it and most of those I’ve had good conversations with. I personally try to learn about other peoples beliefs, even if it is atheism, and try to understand them. I’m an atheist! Yay! Go me! Hmm. I’ve run out of things to say about that subject. Nice weather we’ve been having? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/68 "2019-08-01T21:34:06Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > For day to day stuff I imagine they’re all the same. There’s decent people who don’t wear their religion on their sleeve because they’re secure enough spiritually, and there are atheists who don’t talk about religion because it genuinely never occurs to them to talk about something they don’t believe is real…and then there are the proselytizers on both sides. Nobody likes _them_ very much, and it has only to do with their belief that they have a right to tell someone else what to think. QFT +1. I am an atheist and loud, bitchy, evangelical atheists make my ass itch. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/69 "2019-08-01T21:37:16Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > QFT +1. I am an atheist and loud, bitchy, evangelical atheists make my ass itch. Hi there! 😃 Though I only argue about this stuff on the internet. Doing it in real life with, well, _anyone_ I know would get me crucified. Still though, a good religious debate is fun, for about the thirty seconds before it turns into an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/70 "2019-08-01T21:42:37Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Hi there! 😃 > > Though I only argue about this stuff on the internet. Doing it in real life with, well, _anyone_ I know would get me crucified. Still though, a good religious debate is fun, for about the thirty seconds before it turns into an argument. Good religious debate is, in fact, fun. Derision and sarcasm larded with tired-ass references to Zombie Jesus and Flying Spaghetti Monster, not so much. People I respect and love deeply are believers, not all of them Xian. I consider it a matter of common courtesy to simply refrain from comment on their religious beliefs. YMMV. Also, I’d have more respect for your typical angry atheist in the USA if such people heaped equal scorn on all present day religions. This is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/71 "2019-08-01T21:53:35Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Good religious debate is, in fact, fun. Derision and sarcasm larded with tired-ass references to Zombie Jesus and Flying Spaghetti Monster, not so much. People I respect and love deeply are believers, not all of them Xian. I consider it a matter of common courtesy to simply refrain from comment on their religious beliefs. YMMV. Whereas I refrain from commenting because I have better things to do than get into fights with these people. When I hang out with people, I’m trying to enjoy myself! > [@Scumpup](#): > > Also, I’d have more respect for your typical angry atheist in the USA if such people heaped equal scorn on all present day religions. This is not the case. There are a number of specific reasons that christianity gets all the love and attention around here, and not all of it is just exposure. But _that_ is a subject for a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/72 "2019-08-01T22:08:13Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > But _that_ is a subject for a different thread. Right. One held someplace where Islam, Buddhism, Hindusim, Native American shamanistic religions, et. al. are not given the protected status they are here. “We have much to learn from them.”:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/73 "2019-08-01T22:21:12Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Right. One held someplace where Islam, Buddhism, Hindusim, Native American shamanistic religions, et. al. are not given the protected status they are here. “We have much to learn from them.”:rolleyes: :dubious: Maybe I spend too much time in Great Debates, but I don’t think it would be too hard to find posters entirely willing to roll their eyes at _every_ religion under the sun. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/74 "2019-08-01T22:26:19Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > :dubious: Maybe I spend too much time in Great Debates, but I don’t think it would be too hard to find posters entirely willing to roll their eyes at _every_ religion under the sun. Sure, they roll their eyes…What they don’t do is show those religions the same scorn they show the Xians, especially on the holidays of those religions. Consider this: The Native American anger over the use of war bonnets and such for sports logos is rooted in their culture and religion. When they bitch about a sports team using such, where are the Dopers to drip scorn over their concerns? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/75 "2019-08-01T22:33:09Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Sure, they roll their eyes…What they don’t do is show those religions the same scorn they show the Xians, especially on the holidays of those religions. Consider this: The Native American anger over the use of war bonnets and such for sports logos is rooted in their culture and religion. When they bitch about a sports team using such, where are the Dopers to drip scorn over their concerns? (Are we seriously doing this? _Here?_) As you so ably noted, the native american thing is as much or more a culture thing as it is a religion thing. There _is_ a distinction. And at least one specific doper doesn’t know when any non-christian holidays _are_, which explains in part why this specific doper doesn’t attack those religions more particularly on those holidays. (Also, why would I give them a larger pass on non-holidays? Year round critiques, baby!) ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/76 "2019-08-01T22:50:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > (Are we seriously doing this? _Here?_) > > As you so ably noted, the native american thing is as much or more a culture thing as it is a religion thing. There _is_ a distinction. > > And at least one specific doper doesn’t know when any non-christian holidays _are_, which explains in part why this specific doper doesn’t attack those religions more particularly on those holidays. (Also, why would I give them a larger pass on non-holidays? Year round critiques, baby!) If you are going to claim that that Xianity is not a “culture thing” for its adherents, then we are done here. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/77 "2019-08-01T23:10:01Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > If you are going to claim that that Xianity is not a “culture thing” for its adherents, then we are done here. The situation is obviously more complicated than that, so, have a nice day! (This was all extremely off-topic anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/78 "2019-08-01T23:21:52Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The situation is obviously more complicated than that, so, have a nice day! > > (This was all extremely off-topic anyway.) Right. We’re done. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/79 "2019-08-01T23:23:02Z")
My second child, a son, did not want to continue and complete the confirmation process (Lutheran church). That’s the age when we deem a child is old enough to affirm their faith on their own. I remember that when I was being confirmed. He said no, and so I said okay. His older brother and younger sister were both confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624/80 "2019-08-01T23:34:15Z")
I was raised Episcopalian. We went to church as a family on Sunday mornings until I was about 14 or 15. Then I was given the option of going to church youth group meetings on Sunday evenings instead of Sunday morning church. Which was an easy decision. This was in the early 1970’s. Our youth group had its own special meeting room. Floor cushions and beanbag chairs in addition to upholstered sofas and chairs. All in modern design and bright colors. “Groovy” posters on the walls. A kitchen stocked with sodas and chips. A foosball table. They served dinner at the meetings, things like giant sub sandwiches or pizza or tacos. Our church gave this group a high level of financial support. We would have speakers and discussion on subjects like as social responsibility, teen sexuality, the role of faith in the modern world and the reconciliation of evolution and religion, meditation. We played guitar and sang, any song containing the word Jesus or any vaguely religious imagery made the list. “Suzanne” and “One Toke Over the Line” were among our favorites. We got a field trip once a year, ostensibly to visit some sort of “sister” congregation. But there were always party opportunities in our destinations -Myrtle Beach, Atlanta, Nashville. And we had access to some nice “camps” for weekend trips, retreats with mess halls and cabins. So, all in all, it was pretty cool. And I got to bring friends with me, even if they didn’t go to our church. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-dopers-when-do-you-let-your-kids-opt-out/837624.md?page=5)