# Religious Experiences are not Hallucinations **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 5, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389 "2009-08-05T04:19:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/141 "2009-08-11T15:19:39Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > The near death experience is being studied by no less that thirty universities, with hundreds of doctors involved. What are the thirty universities you say are actively studying near death experience (leaving aside the point that a university as a whole does not study anything)? > [@](#): > > I don’t for a minute think these doctors would be wasting their time on a fruitless search. It has been going on for over thirty years, ever since Dr. Raymond Moody published his first book. And still no real evidence of that detached consciousness of which you speak. Homeopathy has been “studied” for far longer. It continues to have a host of believers, despite abject failure of its central thesis, remaining a disreputable wart on the body of science. Longevity does not make a flawed idea valid. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/142 "2009-08-11T15:24:48Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > For some reason, I don’t completely want to rule out NDEs as harbingers of afterlife (call it a primal fear of having my lights put out). So I’ll just observe that hallucinations can be eerily similar to real experience. If you hallucinate, say, a tarantula shinnying up your kitchen range, that doesn’t disprove the existence of tarantulas. Nor does it eliminate the possibility that one of the little fuzzbutts may actually have found hi/r way into your kitchen. > > As an agnostic, I have no particular dog in the religious-visions fight, except that I would like to be there when Elvis presents [Dr. Susan Blackmore](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/641/do-near-death-experiences-prove-there-is-life-after-death) with her complimentary fruit basket. Here’s a thought. My own experience came at a point of high anxiety. Surely we might call near death a high anxiety moment. Perhaps there is a trigger level in which the body releases a certain chemical in the brain to help us cope with high anxiety. Something similar to adrenaline but in the brain. The problem is, I’m sure some folks that have NDE are not in a position of high anxiety because they have no anticipation of being near death, unless, even in an unconscious state their subconscious realizes the situation. The other issue is I’m sure there are many cases of high anxiety much worse than mine. Why wouldn’t we hear of cases of something similar to the peace I felt in other high anxiety moments if it’s strictly biological and/or neurological. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/143 "2009-08-11T16:23:46Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > What are the thirty universities you say are actively studying near death experience (leaving aside the point that a university as a whole does not study anything)? And still no real evidence of that detached consciousness of which you speak. > > Homeopathy has been “studied” for far longer. It continues to have a host of believers, despite abject failure of its central thesis, remaining a disreputable wart on the body of science. > > Longevity does not make a flawed idea valid. I gave you a link to an experimental surgery. That was controlled in all aspects by instruments of science and doctors who said there was no medical explanation of what happened. It is considered the best evidence of separation available. But I do realize that if someone is closed to a possibility then they actually can not see it though it is right before them. There are many examples of this in history and studies. When Columbus first came to this part of the world. He anchored his big ships and came ashore in small boats. The natives could see the small boats but not the big ships anchored out a bit. As time passed the medicine men began to see the big ships and point them out to others until all could see them. They had no concept of such large ships and could not see them at first. Then there is the experiment with kittens, they took a litter of kittens and put half in a room with no vertical lines and the other half in a room with no horizontal line. After a few weeks, they switched the kittens. The kittens ran into everything, they had no knowledge of the lines and ran into them. I think you could find both these things on the internet if you wish. You see your beliefs filter out those things you have rejected as impossible, so if you wish to learn it is best to be open to all possibilities in life. That way you learn the most. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/144 "2009-08-11T16:38:38Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You see your beliefs filter out those things you have rejected as impossible, so if you wish to learn it is best to be open to all possibilities in life. That way you learn the most. Much like your beliefs filter out the possibility of you being a miserable, self-deluded person parroting mindless rubbish because he’s afraid of death and wants more than anything for their to be a meta-meaning to life. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/145 "2009-08-11T17:07:38Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There are many examples of this in history and studies. When Columbus first came to this part of the world. He anchored his big ships and came ashore in small boats. The natives could see the small boats but not the big ships anchored out a bit. As time passed the medicine men began to see the big ships and point them out to others until all could see them. They had no concept of such large ships and could not see them at first. I was under the impression that the columbus-big-ship-thing had been debunked. From: [wiki article on this topic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Bleep_Do_We_Know%3F!): > [@](#): > > In the film, during a discussion of the influence of experience on perception, Candace Pert notes a story, which she says she believes is true, of Native Americans being unable to see Columbus’s ships because they were outside their experience. According to an article in Fortean Times by David Hambling, the origins of this story likely involved the voyages of Captain James Cook, not Columbus, and an account related by historian Robert Hughes which said Cook’s ships were “…complex and unfamiliar as to defy the natives’ understanding”. Hambling says it is likely that both the Hughes account and the story told by Pert were exaggerations of the records left by Captain Cook and the botanist Joseph Banks. Historians believe the Native Americans likely saw the ships but ignored them as posing no immediate danger.[19] ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/146 "2009-08-11T18:27:58Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I was under the impression that the columbus-big-ship-thing had been debunked. From: [wiki article on this topic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Bleep_Do_We_Know%3F!): I can relate to that, I first heard the story about Magellan, so it has been circulating at lot. It does illustrate a truism about belief systems being filters of what can be seen and heard. Like the Kittens study. It is more subtle when it is about emotions. Dr. Wayne Dyer a psycholigist wrote a book called “When you believe it you will see it.” People that have convinced themselves that nothing exists but materialism would not be able to see anything else. I wish we had a better education system, one that would leave room for possibilities. Some of the things I worry about are how someone like Richard Dawkins can convince others that spiritual events are non-existent when spiritual events have a history of thousands of years, and experiencers that number in the billions. I don’t know how well his crusade is going, but just looking around I don’t see any religions disappearing. There is a new style of religion on rise today, lead by Josh Osteen, his church in Houston, holds 17.000 and is full, there are millions more watching on television. He is a positive preacher. This will grow along with spiritual knowledge and be a great asset to the world. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/147 "2009-08-11T18:35:10Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Much like your beliefs filter out the possibility of you being a miserable, self-deluded person parroting mindless rubbish because he’s afraid of death and wants more than anything for their to be a meta-meaning to life. Flattery will get you nowhere. If I were as miserable as you say I think I would know it. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/148 "2009-08-11T18:43:11Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Flattery will get you nowhere. If I were as miserable as you say I think I would know it. [2 a : wretchedly inadequate or meager \](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/miserable) There’s more than one way to be miserable. It’s quite possible to be both pathetic, limited, and wrong, _and_ to love it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/149 "2009-08-11T19:00:00Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > [2 a : wretchedly inadequate or meager \](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/miserable) > > There’s more than one way to be miserable. It’s quite possible to be both pathetic, limited, and wrong, _and_ to love it. I wouldn’t know, I can’t read minds. I only offer my help to others when they ask for it. I don’t judge, or criticize them personally. But we do talk about attitudes and beliefs that are keeping them from being all they could be. Most people just pick on themselves, never satisfied with what they can accomplish. They down themselves on a daily basis with unreal expectations. If they are hard on others with their criticism and judgments then it’s a sure bet that they treat themselves the same way. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/150 "2009-08-11T19:52:05Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I could fill the page with links, but this one says it all, between the experiencer and the surgeon. This is a real event and time will bring to the forefront where it belongs. Truth will always surface over its detractors. > > [The AfterEffect, pg2, Pam Reynolds - Lekatt Thoughtful Living](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/?p=182) This is nothing but a blog with the impressions of a couple of Pam’s fans’ comments. There is no scientific evidence reported in this piece, a point that has been pointed out to you on numerous previous occasions. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/151 "2009-08-11T19:55:33Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > There’s more than one way to be miserable. It’s quite possible to be both pathetic, limited, and wrong, _and_ to love it. **lekatt** is under a direct order from the SDMB staff to avoid making any more passive-aggressive insults toward other posters. You will do well to not engage in the same sort of behavior. You can refute his actual claims or ignore him, but do not get into a pissing contest or loob insulting insinuations outside the **BBQ Pit**. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/152 "2009-08-11T19:57:21Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Much like your beliefs filter out the possibility of you being a miserable, self-deluded person parroting mindless rubbish because he’s afraid of death and wants more than anything for their to be a meta-meaning to life. You will also refrain from this sort of comment. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/153 "2009-08-11T20:26:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is nothing but a blog with the impressions of a couple of Pam’s fans’ comments. > > There is no scientific evidence reported in this piece, a point that has been pointed out to you on numerous previous occasions. It is hard for me to believe you said that the surgeon and other doctors were only Pan’s fans. And there was no science in this experimental surgery. But it does point out the mind set of this blog. Have a nice day Tomm. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/154 "2009-08-11T20:33:35Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You see your beliefs filter out those things you have rejected as impossible, so if you wish to learn it is best to be open to all possibilities in life. I believe you have filtered out my question: what are the 30 universities you claim are currently studying “the near death experience”? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/155 "2009-08-11T22:07:17Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > There are many examples of this in history and studies. When Columbus first came to this part of the world. He anchored his big ships and came ashore in small boats. The natives could see the small boats but not the big ships anchored out a bit. As time passed the medicine men began to see the big ships and point them out to others until all could see them. They had no concept of such large ships and could not see them at first. I’ve heard this story before, and I’ve always been amazed at how monumentally dumb it is. If people could not physically perceive things they had no experience with, how would anything new ever be invented? Ten years ago I’d never seen an iPod. By your logic, when I wanted to buy one, I’d have needed to hire a shaman to lead me on a vision quest until I was familiar enough with an iPod to perceive one. Hell, this story doesn’t even make good internal sense. It’s not like native Americans were unfamiliar with the concept of a “boat.” The Europeans had bigger, more complicated boats, but I find it hard to believe that an Indian would look out on the water, where a large wooden object with people on it was floating, and find the experience so totally alien that he’d just see a big, empty bay. More likely, he thought, “Holy shit, that is one gigantic fucking canoe.” If we accept your story at face value, one has to wonder how many Europeans plunged unknowingly to their deaths in the Grand Canyon, because nothing in their experience in Europe had prepared them for the concept of a hole that big? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/156 "2009-08-11T22:18:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **lekatt** is under a direct order from the SDMB staff to avoid making any more passive-aggressive insults toward other posters. > > You will do well to not engage in the same sort of behavior. > > You can refute his actual claims or ignore him, but do not get into a pissing contest or loob insulting insinuations outside the **BBQ Pit**. > > [/Moderating] Meh, I just get tired of him making factually incorrect statements about meanings of words. The examples I was thinking about when I wrote that a person could be perfectly happy while living a lie were all friends and family of mine, not him. (And they do love and enjoy their beliefs - they certainly ain’t feigning it.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/157 "2009-08-11T23:55:59Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I believe you have filtered out my question: what are the 30 universities you claim are currently studying “the near death experience”? I am also wondering which 30 universities you are referring to. Are they accredited? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/158 "2009-08-12T00:07:48Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I believe you have filtered out my question: what are the 30 universities you claim are currently studying “the near death experience”? I hadn’t forgot I was compiling the list when I was told by the mod all the research and studies I have posted were no good and I am not to post any more. This effectively takes me out of the debate. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/159 "2009-08-12T00:15:30Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I hadn’t forgot I was compiling the list when I was told by the mod all the research and studies I have posted were no good and I am not to post any more. This effectively takes me out of the debate. Sorry. Now, THAT is disingenuousness of the highest order. If you have actual studies (for a change) you are more than welcome to post them. However, a survey, while useful as a point of exploration, is not a scientific study and some doctor accepting the word of a patient’s beliefs without doing anything to verify those beliefs against reality is not a scientific study. So if all you have are more credulous anecdotes, we can resume the discussion without further interruptions. If you are going to pretend that blogs and personal beliefs are rigorous science, then don’t bother wasting other posters’ time or the board’s storage capacity. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389/160 "2009-08-12T10:44:46Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I thank you for your post, and can’t say what kind of experience you had since it like all personal experiences it was private. But that doesn’t make them unreal or hallucinations. The near death experience is being studied by no less that thirty universities, with hundreds of doctors involved. There is a great deal more to it than someone seeing something. There is solid evidence that consciousness can and does separate from the brain and body when death happens. There are hundreds of examples on the net and in the research studies. I don’t for a minute think these doctors would be wasting their time on a fruitless search. It has been going on for over thirty years, ever since Dr. Raymond Moody published his first book. It is unfortunate that skeptics know so little about them. > > I could fill the page with links, but this one says it all, between the experiencer and the surgeon. This is a real event and time will bring to the forefront where it belongs. Truth will always surface over its detractors. > > [The AfterEffect, pg2, Pam Reynolds - Lekatt Thoughtful Living](http://www.aleroy.com/blog/?p=182) Millions of people also believed the earth was flat. The more that is learned about the human brain the more we understand it. A person who fasts a lot can cause the chemistry of the brain to act in a different way. There are many physical explainations as well. The truth ‘is’ surfacing that is why a lot of illinesses that were once thought to be demonic possession is now better understood. If one wants to believe an event is supernatural he will continue to look for an explaination that will go with his thinking. One could also say an experience was brought about by Satan(as some do) because the Bible says" Satan disguises himself as an angel of light,to lead away even the elect". Depends on one’s beliefs. If one believes strong enough they do not want to know the truth. I do not fault you for your beliefs,they seem to help you. But belief is not proof, one way or the other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-are-not-hallucinations/505389.md?page=9)