# Religious experiences, truth and opinions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2005, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-truth-and-opinions/314008 "2005-07-25T04:38:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![bupkis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c37758/32.png) [@bupkis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bupkis)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-truth-and-opinions/314008/81 "2005-08-03T18:23:03Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > Including you? No, I believe the world and mind are co-dependent. > [@](#): > > How do you know this? Maybe I should’ve said “that there is and I feel like I am” > [@](#): > > Does internal/external apply or not? I put “internal” in quotes because that’s the word we use to locate mind in our perceptual space. It’s not really internal (that wouldn’t make sense), it’s logically prior. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-truth-and-opinions/314008/82 "2005-08-03T18:49:05Z")
> [@bupkis](#): > > No, I believe the world and mind are co-dependent. I could have sworn you were saying “they” are one and the same. > [@](#): > > The world is still real, still important; just, it’s an idea. Isn’t mind just an idea too? If it isn’t, what is it? Can an idea have an idea? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-truth-and-opinions/314008/83 "2005-08-03T19:53:30Z")
> [@bupkis](#): > > This sounds nice and I’m sympathetic to what you’re saying, but the reason I am somewhat antagonistic is that what you and many mystics say sounds a bit hazy – it just lacks precision. For instance, what’s “energy force” mean? What is its nature? How do we know when we experience the true energy force and when we’re hallucinating? When you say I never fade, who or what is _I_? Bupkis will fade, that’s for damn sure–he’ll rot in the ground and be eaten by worms. His loved ones, they won’t last long either. So what is it in “me” that sticks around? How does what sticks around interact with what doesn’t? If soul is imutable and eternal, then what point does self-improvement have? I’m already perfect. If soul does change, then “who I am” changes from instant to instant – how can that be called permanent selfhood? In what non-changing space would such changes be known, and by what method? > > I disgress a little, and these questions are mostly rhetorical. I’m not really disagreeing with you here, I’m just looking to bring philosophical soundness to the explanations we give for the experiences we have. Most of the time, when those of mystical bent give explanations, they’re not really explaining anything, just making new labels. **Cosmosdan,** great post, I agree with all of it completely. **Bupkis,** I do not talk about the mystical, I talk about the spiritual. There is a very large difference. I talk about what I exprienced, and will tell you as much as I know. Yes, it is hazy, mainly because I don’t know the specifics of it. I am told the Creative Force that made this Universe and guides it, is made up of CUs, consciousness units, these units are smaller than atoms by far with the characteristics of self-awareness, curiosity, and love. They form at different densities and different velosities to form all things – material and spiritual. Now you know what I know. Still pretty hazy, but not any more hazy than many science theories. The Force is both universal and personal at the same time. We are a part of the Force and contain the whole as the whole contains the part. Holistically speaking. The Force is called hundreds of different names, in our culture “God”. Now I won’t defend this definition because I know little more than what I have said. It is not important to understand the Force, it is important to learn about it and from it. Love is unconditional. We are living in the physical to do just that, to learn about ourselves and who we are. When we look at others, we see ourselves. When we harm others, we harm ourselves, when we help others, we help ourselves. Upon physical death we return to the Force where we can still learn and grow, or we can return to the physical to learn. Learning in the physical is accelerated by linear events, moving in waves of seemingly good and bad happenings. Now that I have brought the wrath of the skeptics, and the religionists also, upon me it is time to finish this post. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-truth-and-opinions/314008/84 "2005-08-03T20:02:37Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am told the Creative Force that made this Universe and guides it, is made up of CUs, consciousness units, these units are smaller than atoms by far with the characteristics of self-awareness, curiosity, and love. They form at different densities and different velosities to form all things – material and spiritual. Now you know what I know. No, now I know what you’ve been told. Who told you this, and why do you believe it? ---
**Author:** ![bupkis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c37758/32.png) [@bupkis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bupkis)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-truth-and-opinions/314008/85 "2005-08-03T20:17:19Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > I could have sworn you were saying “they” are one and the same. Yeah, I’m being kind of fuzzy on this. I don’t really know but I place them somewhere between being co-dependent and unified. [Non-dual](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta) maybe? There’s a formulation in Vedanta that goes something like this:The world is unreal. Brahman is real. The world is Brahman. I don’t understand it either, but it resonates on some level. (You could loosely take unreal/real as contingent/necessary and Brahman as mind.) Perhaps it depends on the perspective one takes – the world is a product of mind _and_ the mind is part of the world. Both formulations are rational views of an arational reality. > [@](#): > > Isn’t mind just an idea too? If it isn’t, what is it? Can an idea have an idea? Good questions, I don’t know. I guess I tend to think of ideas or principles as efficacious beings not just static hypostases. But, I’m just throwing thoughts out there. I’m no authority. **lekatt** , I may not go along with you 100% on what you say but I can’t disagree either. As you say, it’s still hazy: material/spiritual distinction, you/I/we, etc – I don’t know what these mean. Regardless, it’s refreshing to see attempts at bringing rational discernment to bear on spiritual matters here on the board. While it may seem kooky to some, we’re all just trying to make sense of things. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-truth-and-opinions/314008/86 "2005-08-03T20:34:59Z")
> [@bupkis](#): > > This sounds nice and I’m sympathetic to what you’re saying, but the reason I am somewhat antagonistic is that what you and many mystics say sounds a bit hazy – it just lacks precision. > [@bupkis](#): > > Yeah, I’m being kind of fuzzy on this. Pot, meet kettle. ---
**Author:** ![bupkis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c37758/32.png) [@bupkis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bupkis)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-truth-and-opinions/314008/87 "2005-08-03T20:42:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Isn’t mind just an idea too? If it isn’t, what is it? Taking another stab at this: mind is the space of reality, the stage on which ideas play out. It is also the source and sink of ideas. How ideas arise from mind, persist, and fade back into it is a mystery to me, and probably always will be. As far as hypocrisy, I never claimed to provide crystal-clear and air-tight explanations, just that I’m _trying_ to make them clearer and tighter. When I don’t know something I’ve been forthright about admitting it. Don’t expect total consistency in what I say but by all means, please point out contraditions. I tend to go with what makes sense at the time and don’t keep track of whether I’m adhering to my own “doctrine”. Realizing that you’ve taken on opposing positions that seem equally reasonable and then trying to resolve the conflict can help a lot in developing a robust worldview. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-truth-and-opinions/314008/88 "2005-08-03T21:48:48Z")
Bupkis, pardon my attitude. It’s been an enjoyable discussion. It’s territory worth exploring. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-truth-and-opinions/314008/89 "2005-08-04T01:29:48Z")
> [@bupkis](#): > > Yeah, I’m being kind of fuzzy on this. I don’t really know but I place them somewhere between being co-dependent and unified. [Non-dual](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta) maybe? There’s a formulation in Vedanta that goes something like this:The world is unreal. > Brahman is real. > The world is Brahman. I don’t understand it either, but it resonates on some level. (You could loosely take unreal/real as contingent/necessary and Brahman as mind.) Perhaps it depends on the perspective one takes – the world is a product of mind _and_ the mind is part of the world. Both formulations are rational views of an arational reality. > > Good questions, I don’t know. I guess I tend to think of ideas or principles as efficacious beings not just static hypostases. But, I’m just throwing thoughts out there. I’m no authority. > > **lekatt** , I may not go along with you 100% on what you say but I can’t disagree either. As you say, it’s still hazy: material/spiritual distinction, you/I/we, etc – I don’t know what these mean. Regardless, it’s refreshing to see attempts at bringing rational discernment to bear on spiritual matters here on the board. While it may seem kooky to some, we’re all just trying to make sense of things. Thanks for being civil and acknowledging my attempts at the subject. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-truth-and-opinions/314008/90 "2005-08-04T01:42:52Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > No, now I know what you’ve been told. Who told you this, and why do you believe it? I received this info from spiritual beings not focused in the physical. Call them angels, guides, light beings, whatever, we all have guides that watch over us all the time. This particular bit of info came from Seth, as written down by Jane Roberts in the “Seth” books. All you ever wanted to know about the spiritual and then some. Why do I believe it? Because it dovetails my personal experiences with spirit. Seth writes some of the most beautiful prose I have ever read, and I have read a lot. His discription of God takes only a couple of pages, but is so beautiful it often brings tears to the reader. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-experiences-truth-and-opinions/314008.md?page=4)