# "Religious freedom" and the right to proselytize **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2001, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-and-the-right-to-proselytize/85499 "2001-10-05T02:26:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2001, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-and-the-right-to-proselytize/85499/101 "2001-10-19T23:22:39Z")
> [@](#): > > I know it’s considered very bad form to argue against one’s own argument, but when reading your last statement I’ve noticed a glaring hole in my last point. I’ve got to put my hand up and wave as it’s so obvious that someone else will notice it anyway; at least this way, I can salvage some self-respect… Actually, I think that’s very **good** form! 🙂 Far too many people refuse to admit that they might conceivably have been mistaken, and I have much more respect for those people who can admit that their argument is flawed than I do for those who can’t. > [@](#): > > Therefore, the fact that we happily restrict freedom of speech does not in itself mean that it is not a basic right. Just call me “numbnuts”. Err, if you wish. You, sir, shall henceforth be known as “numbnuts.” 😛 > [@](#): > > So, where does that leave us now? I think all attempts to pin down whether or not freedom of speech is a basic right that cannot be outlawed have come back to the same conclusion: it’s down to the individual’s moral code. Sort of. Essentially, I contend that it comes down to the individual’s definition of a human right. Once this is defined, it’s in principle possible to decide whether free expression is such a right or not. How one defines a human right will depend on one’s moral philosophy. > [@](#): > > This, then, takes us to the question as to who is imposing a moral code on whom: are the Taleban forcing their moral code onto Afghan citizens by banning non-Muslim preaching, or are non-Muslim preachers forcing their moral code onto the Taleban by insisting on freedom of speech? Yes, exactly! It’s a tough question to answer: am I forcing my moral code upon someone by refusing to let him force his moral code on me or not? > [@](#): > > And regardless of “who started it”, the question remains as to whether you have a “right” to ignore the rules. I would say not, just as a renegade spy has no “right” to tell people classified information and a newspaper has no “right” to publish military secrets \ From what I understand, you say that in all the above cases, people still have rights to ignore the rules if they wish. You understand me fairly well. I say that until these people voluntarily cede their rights, they have those rights. It might be argued that by becoming a spy, a person waives his right to publish state secrets, in which case it’s not clear to me that he has the right to do so later, even after quitting the business. To be honest, I don’t know the answer to that one. Likewise, if a reporter waives his right to speak of military secrets in the course of learning them, he manifestly can’t rightfully publish what he’s learned. If he hasn’t waived this right, he can publish them. He might have a **responsibility** not to do so, but he still does have the **right** to do so. By virtue of being an American citizen, I’ve given the government the right to tax me. Were I to go to Afghanistan and the people there to have voluntarily given up their free speech rights, I would likewise have a responsibility to curb my speech if I were to join their society. If the Afghans have had their free speech rights forcibly restricted, I am then under no compulsion to honor these restrictions even were I to enter Afghan society. Does that make sense? (Obviously, you disagree, but I want to be clear.) > [@](#): > > Before I press “submit”, I ought to mention that since I fully intend to achieve world domination, I think you’d better race me there, as if I become world ruler before you do I’ll have to lock you up for holding “dangerous and subversive points of view”. Not only that, I bet you’d go sharing these views with all and sundry as well. 😃 Hmm… Right. A race it is! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2001, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-and-the-right-to-proselytize/85499/102 "2001-10-20T18:38:55Z")
Nothing pertinent to add, but I just thought that this would be an appropriate place to start the list of SDMB members who have aspired to world domination: [li] **sirjamesp** [/li][li] **gr8guy** [/li][li]Hi **Opal**![/li] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-and-the-right-to-proselytize/85499/103 "2001-10-21T03:28:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Nothing pertinent to add, but I just thought that this would be an appropriate place to start the list of SDMB members who have aspired to world domination: > > [li] **sirjamesp** [/li][li] **gr8guy** [/li][li]Hi **Opal**![/li] > 😃 \*\* Uhoh. **James** , **Poly** is on to us. Woe, it pains me to even think this, but we might have to cease hostilities long enough to lock him up… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![sirjamesp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@sirjamesp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sirjamesp)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-and-the-right-to-proselytize/85499/104 "2001-10-22T08:12:24Z")
I’ll notify the caterers in the prison camp. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-and-the-right-to-proselytize/85499.md?page=5)