# Religious Freedom In America? Not If You're A Muslim **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2004, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469 "2004-12-18T02:51:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/21 "2004-12-19T07:43:26Z")
The question of monitoring activity in mosques is complicated by the fact that although obviously the vast majority of mosques are not a haven for terrorist activities, the converse is true. Terrorists often use a mosque as a front (hell, in the Middle East the use them openly to encourage terrorism against the West). This is no coincidence. Terrorists know the incredible protections, legal and financial, that any type of church enjoys in America and are exploiting this. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/22 "2004-12-19T08:34:20Z")
> [@](#): > > **Hail Ants** : This is no coincidence. Terrorists know the incredible protections, legal and financial, that any type of church enjoys in America and are exploiting this. I assume by “type of church” you mean _religious institution_. Actually, I have no doubt that mosques are infiltrated. We are talking about a government that infiltrates even the most innocuous groups. > [@](#): > > **chappachula** : The problem is that jihad is a not a minor part of Islam that only attracts fanatics,(the way abortion bombing is a minor part of Christianity). Then why did President Bush want to fight terrorism by liberating all of those Islamists? (You need to educate yourself on the subject of Islam or get to know some Muslims. Go about it in a non-biased and open way.) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/23 "2004-12-20T06:45:26Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > This is no coincidence. Terrorists know the incredible protections, legal and financial, that any type of church enjoys in America and are exploiting this. In other words, instead of waiting for the terrorists to destroy our way of life, we’ll just undermine our own freedoms and save them the trouble? ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/24 "2004-12-20T06:57:11Z")
Look, everything doesn’t have to be black & white. There can be a reasonable comprimise. In light of 9/11 yes, I do support ‘more aggresive’ monitoring of suspicious muslims’ activities. Will there be abuses? Undoubtedly. Will there be lynchings? No. Notice how even post-9/11 there was no mass exodus of muslims from the US. That’s because they know that even now America is still about a million times better and safer a place for them than anywhere in the Middle East. A hundred intolerant bigoted Americans giving them the skunk-eye is still better than one different sect muslim slitting your throat. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/25 "2004-12-20T14:57:47Z")
Forget about whether or not the mosque question should have “all in it” and look at the preceding question: > [@](#): > > Agree 27% - > All Muslim Americans should be required to > register their whereabouts with the federal > government. That has no hairs to split - if you are Muslim, you must register you whereabouts with the federal government. The word “all” is right there and 27% of Americans said “fuck yeah” to it. Please tell me you have a problem with this. Scanning the survey results I see several other disturbing trends. While people feel safer overall, the number of people who feel that protests and criticism of the government should be allowed has decreased (62 to 60 and 65 to 63 % respectively) and the number of people who feel that the media should report on anti-war/anti-government protests has decreased (33 to 30%) since 2002. Small changes, but in unpleasant directions. At least support for outlawing “un-American” activities has decreased. Only half of Republican respondents feel that protests should be allowed and only 51% feel that public criticisms by individuals of the war or government should be allowed. It boggles the mind. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/26 "2004-12-20T17:05:51Z")
**rjung** : > [@](#): > > In other words, instead of waiting for the terrorists to destroy our way of life, we’ll just undermine our own freedoms and save them the trouble? Nonsense. The goal of the terrorists is to kick the US out of the Middle East and to inflict pain upon us until we leave. It’s not to get the government to undermine our freedoms, least of all with Muslim-Americans bearing the brunt. **Ryan\_liam** : > [@](#): > > Ever heard the phrase ‘you get more flies with Honey rather than Vinegar’? One of my favorite sayings. But remember, it _cuts both ways_. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/27 "2004-12-20T17:23:23Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > IWe are talking about a government that infiltrates even the most innocuous groups. Only on the left though. Pacifist organizations are always considered subversive, while rightist groups that actually preach subversion are considered unthreatening. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/28 "2004-12-20T17:25:47Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > Will there be lynchings? No. And you can guarantee this, of course. And this is of comfort to those who actually were the subject of “lynchings” following the terrorist attacks, including a few Sikhs as well as Muslims. Ah, what the heck. Abuses, shmabuses. Let God sort 'em out. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/29 "2004-12-20T17:54:39Z")
Perhaps **Hail Ants** should look up [Turkmen v. Ashcroft](http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/september_11th/sept11Article.asp?ObjID=35KQUuFROg&Content=96): > [@](#): > > On the pretext of minor immigration violations, the INS held them in detention for the weeks and months that the FBI took to clear them of terrorism. > > Instead of being presumed innocent until proven guilty, hundreds of post-9/11 detainees were presumed guilty of terrorism until proven innocent to the satisfaction of law enforcement authorities. > > And those who had the misfortune of being assigned to the Metropolitan Detention Center (MDC) in Brooklyn, New York, were kept in solitary confinement in windowless cells with the lights on 24-hours a day, placed under a communications blackout that prevented them from seeking the assistance of their friends, relatives, and attorneys, subjected to physical and verbal abuse by correctional officers, manacled, placed in leg shackles, and strip-searched when they were taken out of their cells, and obstructed in their efforts to practice their religion. But they’re _not_ US citizens, you say? Look up _Maher “Mike” Hawash_, _Yasser Esam Hamdi_, _Abdullah al-Muhajir (aka Jose Padilla)_… ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/30 "2004-12-20T18:31:03Z")
> [@Hail Ants](#): > > Look, everything doesn’t have to be black & white. There can be a reasonable comprimise. From the administration who insists “you’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists”? > [@Hail Ants](#): > > Notice how even post-9/11 there was no mass exodus of muslims from the US. That’s because they know that even now America is still about a million times better and safer a place for them than anywhere in the Middle East. And you know this how? How many Muslems have _you_ talked to about their comfort levels in post-9/11 America? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/31 "2004-12-20T18:50:27Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > Freedom of Speech has well-recognized limits: it does not include the unlimited right to indulge in hate speech or to incite a riot. True. > [@chappachula](#): > > Freedom of Religion also has limits: it does not include the right to call for military jihad, or to preach martydom with a reward of 77 virgins for murdering innocent people. False. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/32 "2004-12-20T18:55:38Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Ever heard the phrase ‘you get more flies with Honey rather than Vinegar’ But you can get even more with bullshit! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/33 "2004-12-20T18:58:55Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Only on the left though. Pacifist organizations are always considered subversive, while rightist groups that actually preach subversion are considered unthreatening. 😕 Doesn’t the FBI keep tabs on, and occasionally plant spies in, the American Nazi Party, Klan groups, White Aryan Resistance, Army of God, militia groups, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469/34 "2004-12-22T00:27:47Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Notice how the survey leaves no room to differentiate between Jihadists and other peaceful Muslims. I suspect the survey is more reflective of the political belief of the creators of the survey and what political message they intended to insert into the debate, that of the American population as a whole. An excellent observation, if you frequent the SDMB, and/or other places where a cursory glance is the exception and not the rule. Unfortunately, the airplay given to the poll will be received by the teeming minions at face value with very little thought, introspection and analysis. In short, is the survey just a snapshot of a generalized American attitude? Will publication of the survey – as flawed as it may be – become a self-fulling prophecy in its own right? In other words, do these kinds of survey offer a benign report on attitudes, or do they also generate a life of their own and contribute to the very problem (solution?) being surveyed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-freedom-in-america-not-if-youre-a-muslim/280469.md?page=1)