# Religious fundamentalism threatens children in Britain **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995 "2007-01-29T19:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/21 "2007-01-29T21:16:51Z")
[QUOTE=Hogwash] I hear that if you pray hard enough, microbes can not harm you. I also think it works for bullets. [/QUOTE] Quick question: How does one pray “Hard?” This begs the question: Can one pray “soft” or “easy?” Why would anybody pray easy? Actually, why would anyone pray at all, with no substantial results always the result? 😕 /Hijak/ ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/22 "2007-01-29T21:16:54Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] Speaking of infertility, although this is a rare complication, Mumps \*\*can \*\* lead to male infertility if men catch it as adults. I don’t quite think the uncle pull it out yet, one will have to wait until the kids die or get crippled for other reasons not covered by the usual vaccines. [/QUOTE] There was no vaccination against mumps at that time. Most kids got them. I suppose the male children could have pursued vaccinations as adults, but I don’t know of anyone who’s done that if they didn’t get infected as kids. Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/23 "2007-01-29T21:17:26Z")
[QUOTE=elmwood] And if religion was used by _American_ parents as a reason not to vaccinate their kids, no doubt it would be looked at far more critically than Muslims in the UK. After all, the US is a nation of Bible-thumping fanatics, while radical Muslims in the UK are sane and rational. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] That sounds like something a Muslim would say, minus the rollseyes. I don’t think any have chimed in this thread yet, although I could be mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/24 "2007-01-29T21:17:44Z")
Wow, I had no idea such rumors were going around about American products. I look at this in the same way as I look at the controversy over the HPV vaccine – lots of fundamentalist Christians don’t want their girls to get a vaccine to prevent cervical cancer because they’re afraid it will turn them into little sluts, or something. It’s very sad. We’re talking about human health here. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/25 "2007-01-29T21:18:11Z")
[QUOTE=wring] which was probably a good portion of why there were so little adverse effects for his situation. t’aint the same anymore. [/QUOTE] I disagree. Most people do get their kids vaccinated today. There are some who were avoiding a particular vaccine due to the autism scares, but for the most part, people vaccinate their children. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25628-2004Jul29.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25628-2004Jul29.html) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/26 "2007-01-29T21:25:09Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] I disagree. Most people do get their kids vaccinated today. There are some who were avoiding a particular vaccine due to the autism scares, but for the most part, people vaccinate their children. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25628-2004Jul29.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25628-2004Jul29.html) [/QUOTE] The OP is talking about Britain, where enough have been scared off to cause overall levels to fall dangerously low: [BBC NEWS | Health | Ratings show 'worrying levels' for MMR](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2150758.stm) and [BBC NEWS | UK | England | First measles death for 14 years](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4871728.stm) for example. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/27 "2007-01-29T21:26:14Z")
[QUOTE=elmwood] And if religion was used by _American_ parents as a reason not to vaccinate their kids, no doubt it would be looked at far more critically than Muslims in the UK. After all, the US is a nation of Bible-thumping fanatics, while radical Muslims in the UK are sane and rational. :rolleyes: What is this, Metafilter? [/QUOTE] Right. Because people in this thread are simply falling all over themselves trying to explain or excuse the “doctor’s” reasoning. You fucking retard. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/28 "2007-01-29T21:30:45Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] The OP is talking about Britain, where enough have been scared off to cause overall levels to fall dangerously low: [BBC NEWS | Health | Ratings show 'worrying levels' for MMR](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2150758.stm) and [BBC NEWS | UK | England | First measles death for 14 years](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4871728.stm) for example. [/QUOTE] Gotchya. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/29 "2007-01-29T22:04:53Z")
[QUOTE=elmwood] And if religion was used by _American_ parents as a reason not to vaccinate their kids, no doubt it would be looked at far more critically than Muslims in the UK. [/QUOTE] Christian martyr cleanup in aisle 5. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/30 "2007-01-29T22:20:37Z")
Historically, having a few children exempted from vaccination requirements on the basis of the parents’ beliefs has not affected public health in a major way - because the immunity of the greater “herd” protected everyone, even the unvaccinated kids. Increasingly these days, both extreme religious views and false propaganda about vaccine risks are threatening to significantly increase the number of children who go unvaccinated. In Britain, if larger numbers of Muslim children go without vaccination, both their health and the health of _non-Muslim children_ will be affected. More on “herd immunity” [here.](http://www.healthinschools.org/ejournal/2005/may1.htm) “In any resulting epidemic, (researchers and public health authorities) point out, not only children who are unvaccinated because of parental objections may fall ill, but also children who could not be immunized for medical reasons and the small number of vaccinated children in any population whose immunizations don’t give them full protection.” I don’t know how feasible (scientifically and economically) it is to gear up a subset of halal vaccine production. But I think it’s stupid and criminal to put kids at risk, because you and some of your co-religionists think that the prohibition against “consuming” products from animals who haven’t been ritually killed, extends to vaccines. At least one Islamic doctor quoted in the link in the OP doesn’t consider vaccines unacceptable, though it’s unclear how influential he is. Oh, and since I pitted psychiatrist Dr. Abdul Katme, that glowing example of mental health, I should name the other vaccine villain - Dr. Andrew Wakefield, who collected enormous sums from a lawyers’ group and whose flawed study in the journal _Lancet_ scared many British parents away from vaccination and caused a spike in measles cases. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/31 "2007-01-29T22:31:23Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] I don’t know how feasible (scientifically and economically) it is to gear up a subset of halal vaccine production. [/QUOTE] Or how effective that would be. The OP also mentions that Muslims in Nigeria, Pakistan, and a few other places have refused vaccines because they think they’ve been deliberatly altered to induce infertility. I suspect that assurances from Western doctors that the vaccines are halal would be met with a lot of skepticism in some parte parts of the world. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/32 "2007-01-29T22:41:50Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] Christian martyr cleanup in aisle 5. [/QUOTE] Uhhh … I’m Jewish. And … yeah, not vaccinating your kids is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/33 "2007-01-29T22:43:48Z")
[QUOTE=elmwood] Uhhh … I’m Jewish. [/QUOTE] Well, that just makes your last post to this thread twice as stupid, then. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/34 "2007-01-29T22:50:48Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Or how effective that would be. The OP also mentions that Muslims in Nigeria, Pakistan, and a few other places have refused vaccines because they think they’ve been deliberatly altered to induce infertility. I suspect that assurances from Western doctors that the vaccines are halal would be met with a lot of skepticism in some parte parts of the world. [/QUOTE] How about assurances from Muslim doctors? I suspect it wouldn’t be hard to find some sane docs willing to support a halal vaccine - and religious leaders prepared to evaluate any vaccine as conforming to halal. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/35 "2007-01-29T23:11:32Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] \*Katme’s appeal reflects a global movement by some hardline Islamic leaders who are telling followers to refuse vaccines from the West. In Nigeria, Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of India, Muslims have refused to be immunised against polio after being told that the vaccines contain products that the West has deliberately added to make the recipients infertile.\* [/QUOTE] If polio rates start going up in those countries, I’m sure somebody will blame the West or the Jews. Religious ignorance is bad enough, but when you start compromising other peoples’ lives out of your stupidity it’s unforgiveable. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/36 "2007-01-29T23:28:42Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] The head of Britain’s Islamic Medical Association says that Muslim parents should avoid vaccinating their children. According to Dr. Abdul Katme, [the vaccines are “unholy”](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2570067,00.html) because they aren’t halal products: [/QUOTE] Hmm. There’s the [Muslim Doctors and Dentists Association](http://www.mdda.org.uk/web/), whose latest newsletter focuses on the devout Muslim’s ecological obligations and on mental health issues facing British Muslim children and adolescents. They hold regular health clinics. They look like a real organization. The [Islamic Medical Association of the UK](http://www.islamicmedicine.org/imaUK.doc) appears to consist of a Word document on someone else’s webpage. They don’t have numbers about their members, but the only concrete accomplishment they list in this Word document is, “We established before an Islamic health clinic in Ankpa/Nigeria, which offered a good medical service to a large number of patients there for many years.” In other words, something that they did many years ago and is now defunct. All the rest of their accomplishments consist of going to meetings or giving interviews or issuing position statements. Is there any reason to believe that the IMA of the UK consists of more than one crackpot who’s very good at getting in the news? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/37 "2007-01-29T23:58:15Z")
[QUOTE=mstay] I guess if a Jew or a Muslim needs an organ transplant from a pig that’s right out? :dubious: [/QUOTE] I don’t know about Muslims, but as for Jews, no. This has been gone over many times before: in a choice between saving your life and keeping kosher, Jewish law says essentially, “don’t be a schmuck, save your life.” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/38 "2007-01-30T00:19:19Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Is there any reason to believe that the IMA of the UK consists of more than one crackpot who’s very good at getting in the news? [/QUOTE] Dr. Katme is listed as spokesman on the subject of halal meat and food for the [Muslim Council of Britain](http://www.mcb.org.uk/), which looks like more than a “crackpot” group. It’d be nice if his fellow Muslims dismissed his views on the vaccine issue. Unfortunately I can think of more than a few spokesmen for various religious and ethnic groups who regularly issue crackpotoid statements but have substantial followings in their communities. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/39 "2007-01-30T01:20:30Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Speaking from a practical viewpoint, though, is it possible to produce versions of these vaccines which _are_ halal (assuming of course that he’s correct to say they aren’t)? It’d be worth the extra effort. [/QUOTE] If it should suit the political and cultural aims of a religious group for 1000 angels to fit on the head of a pin, then that is how many they will declare fit. If it should suit them for only 10 to fit, then that is how many they will declare fit. So with this particular sort of moslem, so with halal. You’re asking the wrong question. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/40 "2007-01-30T01:34:12Z")
[QUOTE=Sublight] I don’t know about Muslims, but as for Jews, no. This has been gone over many times before: in a choice between saving your life and keeping kosher, Jewish law says essentially, “don’t be a schmuck, save your life.” [/QUOTE] In fact, if you’re in a situation where consuming a medicine derived from non-kosher animals will save your life, you’re **required** by Jewish law to set aside the kosher issue and take the medicine. Same thing applies if you’re starving and the only food available is something non-kosher like shellfish. The Muslim halal rules seem to have a similar exception: > [@Koran](#): > > He (Allah) has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name has been invoked besides that of Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits, then he is guiltless. For Allah is Most Forgiving and Most Merciful > [@Jackmannii](#): > > In Nigeria, Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of India, Muslims have refused to be immunised against polio after being told that the vaccines contain products that the West has deliberately added to make the recipients infertile. That sounds like a re-hash of the old [Tropical Fantasy](http://www.snopes.com/racial/business/tropical.asp) urban legend- a soft drink supposedly contained some ingredient that would cause sterility in black men. Don’t the people who believe these rumors ever _think_? [Sterilization is one of the world’s most popular methods of birth control](http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/Update18.htm)- if there really were a way to permanently sterilize people using just a shot or a drink (or a pill), adult men and women who don’t want any more children would be lined up to get it the world over. The Indian and Chinese governments, among other governments of countries where population growth is a problem, would have huge campaigns to encourage people to get it. Some drug company could probably make billions of dollars off of it. It’s not the sort of thing that could or would be kept secret. This rumor is even sillier than the rumor that the [US government is suppressing a super-high-mileage carburetor](http://www.snopes.com/autos/business/carburetor.asp). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995.md?page=3)