# Religious fundamentalism threatens children in Britain **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 29, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995 "2007-01-29T19:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/41 "2007-01-30T01:35:50Z")
Sounds like evolution in action to me. \ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/42 "2007-01-30T02:04:25Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] Dr. Katme is listed as spokesman on the subject of halal meat and food for the [Muslim Council of Britain](http://www.mcb.org.uk/), which looks like more than a “crackpot” group. [/QUOTE] Interestingly, he’s not on their [health and medical issues](http://www.mcb.org.uk/comm_details.php?heading_id=41&com_id=9) committee, nor on their [food standard & chaplancy](http://www.mcb.org.uk/chomepage.php?com_id=22) committee. The Islamic Medical Association [is not an afficliate of the MCB](http://www.mcb.org.uk/downloads/MCB_acheivments.pdf). I wonder whether this “spokesman on the subject of halal meat” was intended to be a sinecure role for a loud crackpot? I know that nonprofits often have irritating people who want to do work, and it’s easier to give them something harmless to do than to risk having a loudmouth enemy who will be insulting you in the press every chance they get. Is it possible that this is why he holds this role in MCB? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/43 "2007-01-30T03:04:21Z")
Without trying to minimize the issue, this is no more nor less important than any other situation in which one group or another objects to a proven, life-saving medical practice purely on religious grounds. I think I’m going to rely on the expectation that people of reasonable intelligence and education are not going to take Dr. Katme’s recommendations as being anything other than what they are: reckless nonsense. It is unfortunate that he is making these claims, but ISTM the majority of people who actually follow his advice are predisposed to avoid things they don’t understand, like, say, the whole concept of vaccination to begin with. I suspect that many of these people, if they did not have Dr Katme’s opinions to hang their hats on, would find another excuse. Most persons of Islamic faith can see people all about them who eat vast quantities of _haram_ foods with no ill effects or significant reduction in lifespan, and thus presumably question what exactly makes them _haram_; likewise most educated people could likely reason for themselves that a psychiatrist speaking solely out of a personal interpretation of a religious edict may not be the best person to turn to for advice on immunization. If they have not already done so, the UK government, or one or more organizations of medical professionals in the UK, should make a public statement repudiating Dr. Katme’s views as having no scientific basis whatever. Short of passing some sort of law banning the talking of utter rubbish in public, I’m not sure there is much else that can be done at present. What would be even better, of course, would be for another Islamic cleric, or group of clerics, to say that Dr. Katme is full of shit. More politely than that, maybe, but it remains a fact that poo is spilling out his ears. Well, concerning any scientific basis for declaring vaccinations _haram_. Like it or not, if the vaccines in question use animal tissue in their creation, it seems there is some basis, from a purely religious standpoint, for Dr. Katme’s assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/44 "2007-01-30T03:28:35Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] I wonder whether this “spokesman on the subject of halal meat” was intended to be a sinecure role for a loud crackpot? I know that nonprofits often have irritating people who want to do work, and it’s easier to give them something harmless to do than to risk having a loudmouth enemy who will be insulting you in the press every chance they get. Is it possible that this is why he holds this role in MCB? [/QUOTE] I suppose time will tell if Katme’s pronouncement further dampens British Muslim participation in vaccination programs. He’s definitely far from a loon crying in the wilderness, as [previous events have shown.](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/02/health/main627313.shtml) Certainly you can find extremely nutty viewpoints in America about the supposed hazards of vaccination, and not only among those who think that preservatives in vaccines are responsible for autism. [This quack](http://www.islamonline.net/English/Science/2002/06/article16.shtml) (a naturopath, apparently) seems to be making common cause with the U.S. anti-vax faction. Interesting mini-debate [here](http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=461_0_26_0_C30) from a few years back on Islam and vaccination - from good sense to complete lunacy. From the [islamonline.net](http://islamonline.net) article linked to above: "_To deal with the haram ingredients in some of the vaccines a Sheik suggested that reciting “bisimillah arrahman arrahim” over the vaccines would cleanse them."_ Sounds like a workable compromise to me. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/45 "2007-01-30T10:01:01Z")
> [@](#): > > There are several companies who have successfully produced and marketed halal pharmaceutical products in Malaysia. **A perfect example is a halal vaccine for hajj pilgrims, produced by Finlay-Heber-Bioven Sdn Bhd. The Malaysian company, a subsidiary of Bioven Holdings Sdn Bhd, worked with the Centre for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology in Cuba to develop the vaccine to treat meningococcal meningitis.** The collaboration, which will involve experts from Universiti Sains Malaysia and other local universities, is hoped to market the vaccine globally, especially to the Organisation of the Islamic Conference countries. > > Another company that has successfully produced halal pharmaceutical products is Halagel (M) Sdn Bhd, which is currently a leading supplier and distributor of halal gelatin ingredients for food and pharmaceutical manufacturers in Malaysia. Incorporated on August 19th, 1997, Halagel is the sole importer and distributor for halal gelatin, halal empty hard gelatin capsules and dicalcium phosphate, which is widely used in toothpaste. > **[TheHalalJournal](http://www.halaljournal.com/)** > > The Magazine for the Global Halal Market ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/46 "2007-01-30T10:34:26Z")
[QUOTE=Hogwash] I hear that if you pray hard enough, microbes can not harm you. [/QUOTE] I heard that too. I also heard that if you get ill, it’s always because you didn’t pray hard enough, not because praying instead of taking necessary medicine is a fucking stupid idea. - No, really, I used to be part of a group that held exactly this view - that you could be immune from disease (and be financially prosperous etc) if you just followed the plan. Anyone who got sick or into money trouble just obviously wasn’t following the plan properly. ---
**Author:** ![scareyfaerie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scareyfaerie/32/3135_2.png) [@scareyfaerie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scareyfaerie)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/47 "2007-01-30T10:56:06Z")
Nut jobs, the lot of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/48 "2007-01-30T10:59:36Z")
Actually, no. According to my grandmother, if you get sick it’s because you did something to catch it and people die just because they give up. God doesn’t get involved unless you want to have a nice religious parade, with chairs in the front row for women of a certain age. She reckons that being 93 and in better health than her daughters (who’ve caught things like two cancers) is proof that she’s Doing Things Right. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/49 "2007-01-30T11:35:40Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] _shrugs_ I’m not a Jew or a Muslim, I couldn’t say. That too would be foolish, IMHO, even more so that refusing a vaccination, but then I do tend to think any kind of religion-based dietary rules are. It just seems to me that convincing people they’re wrong isn’t going to happen anytime soon, so why not try and work round their restrictions if it means a child’s health? [/QUOTE] To be fair, would it be applicable to also pit any abstinence from a potentially life saving medicine/action that is contrary to a set of ideological beliefs? It seems our World is filled with a multitude of these. Linda McCartney comes to mind. Also, “holistic medicine”, spiritual healing and other ideologically based remedies. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/50 "2007-01-30T13:03:38Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] To be fair, would it be applicable to also pit any abstinence from a potentially life saving medicine/action that is contrary to a set of ideological beliefs? It seems our World is filled with a multitude of these. Linda McCartney comes to mind. Also, “holistic medicine”, spiritual healing and other ideologically based remedies. [/QUOTE] Yes, that’d be fair. I’d consider vegetarianism/veganism to be a slightly better reason than religion (and much better than faith healing), but still a silly position to take. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995/51 "2007-01-30T17:21:42Z")
Interesting note: Iran reports very high vaccination rates, despite all the Crusader body parts, sterilants and other Western garbage we allegedly pack into vaccines. [Cite.](http://www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/en/globalsummary/timeseries/tscoveragebycountry.cfm?country=Iran%20%28Islamic%20Republic%20of%29) Pakistan’s vaccination coverage is said to be much poorer. [Interesting blog piece on the controversy.](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/01/muslims_shouldnt_be_vaccinated.php) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-fundamentalism-threatens-children-in-britain/389995.md?page=2)