# Religious indoctrination is child abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 26, 2019, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001 "2019-11-26T06:31:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/21 "2019-11-26T17:08:03Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > Prove either one definitively, with no doubts and absolute certainty. You can lean toward one, for whatever reasons and evidence, but can you absolutely say without a shadow of a doubt it to be absolute. That’s not how science works. Science says “This is what the evidence points to.” The evidence may be misleading or incomplete or misunderstood. But the evidence still exists and scientific people are following where the evidence leads them. Science may not give us absolute truth. But it’s the best means we have for getting as close to absolute truth as possible. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/22 "2019-11-26T17:15:58Z")
> [@anomalous1](#): > > On that note, neither the religious nor the atheists know definitively whether there is a supreme deity/creator nor if the big bang etc actually occurred. Treating “we pulled this out of our ass” as equal to “based on accumulated knowledge subjected to rigourous testing but open to review upon new evidence” as equal gives **Barack Obama** ’s inane rant more weight. **crowmanyclouds** is right: > [@](#): > > Ayup, it’s taking longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/23 "2019-11-26T17:16:29Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Every single religious family, whether they are good or bad, whether they’re teaching their kid science is fake, or homosexuals are bad, or if they’re just teaching them not to hold onto material possessions and show compassion to every person, if they’re being taught a specific religious practice, it’s abuse. You are forcing children who cannot consent to this knowledge to believe cultist fantasies about the universe. It is child abuse pure and simple, if you want to teach your child your beliefs, principles, philosophy, thats fine. But the moment you start teaching them a women gave a virgin birth 2000 years ago, and if you have sex with a man ur going to hell, you’ve just abused your child, potentially ruining their life by destroying the foundation of facts and reasoning they can apply, forcing them to defend their beliefs instead of questioning them. This notion of presuppositionalism needs to stop, your bible isn’t a science book. Stop convincing yourself, your kids, and others it is. Parents teaching their children moral values, even if those moral values are derived from religious beliefs, is not abuse. Saying it is trivializes real abuse. I’m going to assume that every child will also be educated about science and history. They may as a result of what they learn later reject the religious beliefs they were raised on. Or they may choose to maintain their religious beliefs. Or reach some middle ground. All of these are their decision to make. Not yours. Not mine. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/24 "2019-11-26T17:31:52Z")
Is it child abuse to teach your kids not to kick the cat? Can you come up with a detailed scientific explanation as to why they shouldn’t kick the cat? (“It’ll hurt the cat” doesn’t count: what you need is a detailed scientific explanation for why humans shouldn’t hurt cats. One that everybody agrees is properly scientifically based.) Also, it’s effectively impossible for adults to practice a religion and not teach their kids about it. ‘Why do you go to that building most Sundays?’ ‘We can’t talk about that till you’re grown up. And don’t read any of the signs outside the church, either.’ ‘Why do you light those candles every Friday night, and say words over them in another language?’ ‘We can’t talk about that until you’re grown up. And ignore half what we’re saying over the dinner table, while you’re at it.’ Dudn’t work. Teach your kids that other people disagree with your religious beliefs or with your atheism, and that those other people aren’t all evil, and that they get to choose when they grow up. That can work; and a lot of people actually do that. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/25 "2019-11-26T17:32:19Z")
> [@Trancephalic](#): > > Teaching of religion isn’t abuse necessarily, but it most definitely normalizes the most common vector of abuse. All for unproven benefits no less. > > But hey, I’m sure kids are learning that evolution is false and pernicious, the earth is a disk under a glass dome, Leviticus 18:20, and the mark of Ham from secular sources. > > No bible needed for those. Right similarly religion can lead to ignorance, bigotry, and violence but religion is also not needed for those things to occur, and I suspect there are more than a few individuals who if not for religion might actually engage in more antisocial behavior, in the end it’s probably a wash. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/26 "2019-11-26T17:42:07Z")
According to the Christian rah-rahs that picket out local women’s health center, “gay parenting” is child abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/27 "2019-11-26T18:06:39Z")
Where do we stand on making them eat vegetables? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/28 "2019-11-26T18:08:21Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Can you come up with a detailed scientific explanation as to why they shouldn’t kick the cat? (“It’ll hurt the cat” doesn’t count: what you need is a detailed scientific explanation for why humans shouldn’t hurt cats. One that everybody agrees is properly scientifically based.) Science can indeed back up the fact that pain and suffering occurr as a result of certain actions. The golden rule (which is non religious) does the rest and is based on sound evolutionary benefits for social species. That’s as scientific as you are going to get and of course is a million miles more evidencially-based than “gods say so” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/29 "2019-11-26T18:08:48Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Where do we stand on making them eat vegetables? Not eating your broccoli makes Baby Jesus cry. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/30 "2019-11-26T18:12:58Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Science can indeed back up the fact that pain and suffering occurr as a result of certain actions. > > The golden rule (which is non religious) does the rest and is based on sound evolutionary benefits for social species. > > That’s as scientific as you are going to get and of course is a million miles more evidencially-based than “gods say so” The existence of pain and suffering explains why I don’t want the cat to bite me. It doesn’t explain why I shouldn’t kick the cat. The Golden Rule doesn’t fill this gap. I know cats. My not kicking them is no guarantee they won’t bite me. Or poop in my shoes. My belief that it’s wrong to kick a cat has no objective factual basis. It’s just a moral belief I hold; essentially it’s an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/31 "2019-11-26T18:13:08Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > My teaching my kids about Jesus won’t even hit the top 10 of ways I’ve abused my children. Dad jokes; aiding belief in Santa Claus for a few years; waking them up every Friday for school with Rebecca Blacks “Friday” blaring from my phone; deliberately wearing socks with sandals when their friends come over; drinking alcohol in front of them; dancing (very poorly) like a Kpop idol while their aforementioned friends are there; physically dragging them out of Target when they’re having a toddler meltdown; making pretend “grown up sexy time” noises whenever they knock on our bedroom door (now that they’re teens), starting to (but stopping short of actually) reliving their most embarrassing moments in their toddlerdom just to remind them; running around Universal Studios yelling “I want to go to go on this ride! No, I want a Chocolate Frog! I want to go on this ride! I want some pumpkin juice!!!” and always running right back to them, taking a selfie of myself (by accident, of course) every single time I take a picture of them, and posting about all of those on a message board will certainly scar them much worse. I’d suggest that none that compares to being brainwashed into thinking that a firey eternal torment awaits them or their loved ones when they die. You know, that awkward subject that Jesus was fond of talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/32 "2019-11-26T18:18:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The existence of pain and suffering explains why I don’t want the cat to bite me. It doesn’t explain why I shouldn’t kick the cat. > > The Golden Rule doesn’t fill this gap. I know cats. My not kicking them is no guarantee they won’t bite me. Or poop in my shoes. > > My belief that it’s wrong to kick a cat has no objective factual basis. It’s just a moral belief I hold; essentially it’s an opinion. Why do you hold that opinion if not from some version of the golden rule and appreciation of the reality of pain and suffering? Are you mentally flipping a coin? Do you apply the golden to rule to humans but not cats? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/33 "2019-11-26T18:19:12Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > According to the Christian rah-rahs that picket out local women’s health center, “gay parenting” is child abuse. Heck, I consider raising your children to be Yankees fans is child abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/34 "2019-11-26T18:24:35Z")
And political, and educational (or lack thereof) and cultural and food, and … and Oh Fuck it , you get the point, it just needs to be illegal to fucking have kids! /sarcasm How are you still posting here? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/35 "2019-11-26T18:37:45Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Heck, I consider raising your children to be Yankees fans is child abuse. I feel the exact opposite. Where shall we have our armies collide? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/36 "2019-11-26T18:43:30Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’d suggest that none that compares to being brainwashed into thinking that a firey eternal torment awaits them or their loved ones when they die. You know, that awkward subject that Jesus was fond of talking about. If you ask my teenaged girls right now if they worry more about their eternal soul going to hell or what bizarre things their father would do in public when I’m with them, I’d win hands down. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/37 "2019-11-26T18:49:22Z")
I don’t think the OP realizes the freedom we have with freedom of religion - Including Atheists, Not Freedom from religion, or not state is the religion. Anywhere where there is a state religion or state atheism are places with less freedom. Freedom of religion allows for greater freedom and for free thinking. Add to this children, including your ass when it was young. You were told things were true, you accepted it because of authority. You later challenged it because you contrasted competing authorities and your observations. You were this challenged to be a free thinking being. You then deny the very thing that had you strive for free thinking. You see but not perceive, hear but do not understand what God has ordained. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/38 "2019-11-26T18:51:47Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > If you ask my teenaged girls right now if they worry more about their eternal soul going to hell or what bizarre things their father would do in public when I’m with them, I’d win hands down. So they don’t really think there is a hell? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/39 "2019-11-26T18:54:04Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I don’t think the OP realizes the freedom we have with freedom of religion - Including Atheists, Not Freedom from religion, or not state is the religion. Anywhere where there is a state religion or state atheism are places with less freedom. Freedom of religion allows for greater freedom and for free thinking. Secularism is the only guarantee of freedom of and freedom from religion. > [@](#): > > You then deny the very thing that had you strive for free thinking. You see but not perceive, hear but do not understand what God has ordained. nonsensical circular reasoning ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/40 "2019-11-26T19:02:39Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > So they don’t really think there is a hell? I seriously doubt it. I don’t, so I’m pretty sure they don’t either. I think what you’re missing was that my post was a joke. I find online people giving other people advice on how to raise their children to be a highly contentious, highly volatile topic that is awash in self-righteousness, defensiveness, and not much else. I thought it would be fun to try and disarm the level of rancor that comes from a thread like this, by sharing some (hopefully) funny things I’ve done to screw up my kids. I apparently didn’t succeed with you, so apologies for that. Feel free to dig deeper into your pit of anger and self-righteousness, but do so without me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001.md?page=3)