# Religious indoctrination is child abuse. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 26, 2019, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001 "2019-11-26T06:31:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/41 "2019-11-26T19:12:28Z")
So, with all of these added up, the only non-abusive way to raise a child is to give them everything they want, never make them do anything they don’t feel like doing, don’t ever challenge them in any way, and let them do whatever they want all the time. Have I got that? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/42 "2019-11-26T19:27:47Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Feel free to dig deeper into your pit of anger and self-righteousness, but do so without me. No, it is fine, you quite rightly joke about it but you completely misjudge the tone of my post, no anger and no self-righteousness. The fact is that some religious people _do_ indeed teach their children about a vision of hell. That you don’t and haven’t done so to your kids is a good thing. Anyone who actually does do that or something similar is absolutely guilty of a form of mental abuse to my mind. I wouldn’t know what else to call it. I reserve my anger and scorn for them. Religious teaching per se isn’t child abuse but in some cases, as above, it can be. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/43 "2019-11-26T19:29:15Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > So, with all of these added up, the only non-abusive way to raise a child is to give them everything they want, never make them do anything they don’t feel like doing, don’t ever challenge them in any way, and let them do whatever they want all the time. > > Have I got that? Not sure where you get that from. Is that what you think child-raising without religion is like? ---
**Author:** ![Trancephalic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trancephalic/32/380_2.png) [@Trancephalic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trancephalic)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/44 "2019-11-26T19:39:39Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Right similarly religion can lead to ignorance, bigotry, and violence **but religion is also not needed for those things to occur** Such as? > [@pool](#): > > and I suspect there are more than a few individuals who if not for religion might actually engage in more antisocial behavior, in the end it’s probably a wash. [Woops](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-prisoners-less-likely-to-be-atheists/). But hey it’s not like 40% of Americans would be prejudiced against a qualified atheist presidential candidate. [Woops](https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/05/09/a-record-60-of-americans-say-they-could-vote-for-an-atheist-president/). ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/45 "2019-11-26T19:42:44Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > I feel the exact opposite. Where shall we have our armies collide? Fenway Park ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/46 "2019-11-26T20:03:45Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Secularism is the only guarantee of freedom of and freedom from religion. Freedom is primary, what you wish which seems to be freedom from religion sort or requires freedom of religion. > [@](#): > > nonsensical circular reasoning Though you wish this pre canned response applies, it does not. It itself is circular reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/47 "2019-11-26T20:23:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Freedom is primary, what you wish which seems to be freedom from religion sort or requires freedom of religion. I meant exactly what I said. Secularity is required for freedom of religion and freedom from religion, I think society should have both and only a secular state can truly give that. > [@](#): > > Though you wish this pre canned response applies, it does not. It itself is circular reasoning. There was no reasoning in my statement, it was an opinion. You seemed to be presupposing a god as prerequisite for freedom of choice. Is that what you meant or not? ---
**Author:** ![racepug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@racepug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racepug)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/48 "2019-11-26T20:30:14Z")
The older I’ve gotten the more I’ve come to believe that religion is just a bunch of superstitious hokum. All religion, everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/49 "2019-11-26T20:38:46Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Heck, I consider raising your children to be Yankees fans is child abuse. > [@D\_Odds](#): > > I feel the exact opposite. Where shall we have our armies collide? May I suggest Busch Stadium? I think that one would count as neutral ground for both the Yankees and Red Sox. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/50 "2019-11-26T21:15:51Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > May I suggest Busch Stadium? I think that one would count as neutral ground for both the Yankees and Red Sox. I actually relish the opportunity to crush my enemies on their own soil. I also prefer stadiums that haven’t bartered their home team’s soul for corporate naming rights. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/51 "2019-11-26T21:15:54Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Heck, I consider raising your children to be Yankees fans is child abuse. No, but raising them a Jets fan really is child abuse. Haven’t won since 1969 and have found many creative ways to suck. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/52 "2019-11-26T21:20:57Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > No, but raising them a Jets fan really is child abuse. Haven’t won since 1969 and have found many creative ways to suck. I remember ready a story about the high cost of taking a family to NFL games, saying that parking, tickets, etc in the Meadowlands would cost a family of 4 nearly $1000 before they walked through the doors. And to add insult to injury, when they got inside they had to watch the Jets play. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/53 "2019-11-26T23:10:10Z")
Shit ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/54 "2019-11-26T23:16:35Z")
> [@Trancephalic](#): > > Such as? > > [Woops](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-prisoners-less-likely-to-be-atheists/). > > But hey it’s not like 40% of Americans would be prejudiced against a qualified atheist presidential candidate. [Woops](https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/05/09/a-record-60-of-americans-say-they-could-vote-for-an-atheist-president/). I was saying that violence and prejudice can be caused by religion, but religion is not required. Are you saying that violence and prejudice only occur as a result of religion? Whoops you dropped two cites that I’m sure you thought made some point, I’m not going to bother to divine what your point is, go ahead and make some argument, your cites don’t contradict anything I’ve said. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/55 "2019-11-27T00:01:27Z")
> [@pool](#): > > I was saying that violence and prejudice can be caused by religion, but religion is not required. Are you saying that violence and prejudice only occur as a result of religion?. I think Steven Weinberg said it well > [@](#): > > With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. And I tend to agree, in my opinion religion is probably a net increaser of prejudice, division and hatred overall in the world. Not the sole fuel of it by any means, but certainly a handy accelerant. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/56 "2019-11-27T01:15:31Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > No, but raising them a Jets fan really is child abuse. Haven’t won since 1969 and have found many creative ways to suck. Butt fumble. ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/57 "2019-11-27T01:47:33Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Mmmmmmm…Ham. Exactly, finally someone agrees. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/58 "2019-11-27T01:49:00Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Cosmic fucking background fucking radiation. Maybe you’re capable of starting with [Big Bang - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Observational_evidence)? > > NOTHING in science is ‘proven’, EVERYTHING is provisional, there is NO CERTAINTY. > > You should also, at least try to, understand what a fucking scientific fucking theory fucking is . . . here’s a clue, IT AIN’T A FUCKING GUESS! > > CMC fnord! I see you’ve finally met anomalous1, someone who is not at all familiar with either the scientific method or an informed opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/59 "2019-11-27T03:49:26Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think Steven Weinberg said it well > > And I tend to agree, in my opinion religion is probably a net increaser of prejudice, division and hatred overall in the world. Not the sole fuel of it by any means, but certainly a handy accelerant. Mr. Weinberg clearly had never met Mr Hyde. I have, and while religion can provide the kind of authority structures in which certain spiders lurk, it is by no means the sole thing that can. Sports coaches. Referees. Doctors. Lawyers. Jail guards. Teachers. Parents and other relatives. The list of positions that can be abused is as long as the list of positions of authority. Religion didn’t invent authority, any more than football did (any kind of either). ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001/60 "2019-11-27T07:32:55Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Mr. Weinberg clearly had never met Mr Hyde. I have, and while religion can provide the kind of authority structures in which certain spiders lurk, it is by no means the sole thing that can. I don’t know who Mr. Hyde is but Weinberg’s point was not about authority and no-one, not him and not me, is claiming that bad things only happen in religion. > [@](#): > > Sports coaches. Referees. Doctors. Lawyers. Jail guards. Teachers. Parents and other relatives. The list of positions that can be abused is as long as the list of positions of authority. Religion didn’t invent authority, any more than football did (any kind of either). Correct but irrelevant to the point being made. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-indoctrination-is-child-abuse/844001.md?page=4)