# Religious liberty of public employee vs. same-sex marriage rights. How to reconcile? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876 "2015-06-30T16:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/241 "2015-07-02T11:21:21Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I have too much respect for for EVERYONE’S human rights to simply say: “Tell the bastards to do their job or hit the road.” Even Muslims? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > They’ve been given the message six ways from Sunday for decades now. What the fuck more do you want us to do, and how much more time do you want us to waste trying to do it? I’m waiting to hear from Dick Gregory’s grandmother before I decide. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/242 "2015-07-02T12:05:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What I can’t believe is that I’m engaged with what I consider to be one of the more intelligent posters on this MB who seems to think that name-calling is an effective strategy to win someone over to his side. I don’t think it’s effective at changing their minds. But it’s effective at discouraging people from joining them. Their views have already been rejected by the younger generation…and actually by both people. Now it’s about keeping their views where they belong- in the marginalized fringe- until they die off. Again, this is not some neutral difference in opinion. It’s not like having a different favorite color. Their views and actions cause harm to the people I love. They hurt my loved ones. I have no reason to be patient or understanding. These ideas need to be be actively rejected. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/243 "2015-07-02T12:05:20Z")
> [@opossum](#): > > I hope I’m not being naive, but doesn’t making a distinction between legal marriage and religious marriage (however each person’s religion or lack thereof defines it) turn down the heat on this issue significantly? In some cases maybe, but many states that banned same sex marriage also banned civil unions at the same time, which invalidates the hypothesis that what they were really worried about was the religious connotations of calling it “marriage”: no, in those instances, what they were really concerned about was sticking it to the Q\*\*\*\*s. Of course, that was 10 or so years ago and a lot has changed since then. ETA: this also makes laughable the straw-grasping of some who are now saying “can’t we just have civil unions? They have the same rights as marriage, right?” No, they specifically forbade civil unions when they had the chance to be for them. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/244 "2015-07-02T12:39:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, in trying to win straight people over to your cause you think it’s not helpful to get advice from straight people. That makes a lot of sense. You can offer advice all the live-long day. Nobody is obliged to TAKE it. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/245 "2015-07-02T13:03:51Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Fire them _yesterday_. Same goes for any pharmacist who refuses to fill a legal prescription. > > Door, ass. Agree. I find it somewhat odd that this “debate” - in all the various permutations I’ve seen over the last couple of days - is so overwhelmingly in favor of “make 'em do their jobs,” when the identical pharmacist debate was/is so much more split among the same audience. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/246 "2015-07-02T13:29:43Z")
Let’s be clear about this. These people want to exercise their religious beliefs to deny their fellow citizens their civil rights. For what other kinds of civil rights violations do we allow a grace period like that proposed here? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/247 "2015-07-02T13:39:19Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I don’t think it’s effective at changing their minds. But it’s effective at discouraging people from joining them. Their views have already been rejected by the younger generation…and actually by both people. Now it’s about keeping their views where they belong- in the marginalized fringe- until they die off. THat, while a more plausible argument, is still unlikely, IMO. I’m not sure how we would ever prove such a thing, so we’ll probably have to agree to disagree > [@](#): > > Again, this is not some neutral difference in opinion. It’s not like having a different favorite color. Their views and actions cause harm to the people I love. They hurt my loved ones. I have no reason to be patient or understanding. These ideas need to be be actively rejected. Just because I think calling them bigots is unproductive doesn’t mean I wouldn’t call them out as being wrong, or explaining that their views and actions cause harm to the people I love. They hurt my loved ones, but I choose patience (not understanding). These ideas need to be actively rejected (and that can be done without engaging in name calling, which I think is actually counter-productive). ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/248 "2015-07-02T13:52:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Let’s be clear about this. These people want to exercise their religious beliefs to deny their fellow citizens their civil rights. For what other kinds of civil rights violations do we allow a grace period like that proposed here? Not exactly the same thing, but there was considerable debate about 8 years ago about the [Muslim cab drivers in the Twin Cities versus the passengers who would be booted for travelling with dogs or alcohol.](http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2827800) (Edited article) > [@](#): > > Commissioners at one of the country’s biggest airports are considering punishing Muslim cab drivers who refuse service to passengers possessing alcohol or guide dogs. > > “It is against our faith and the airport is discriminating against Muslim drivers,” says a cab driver who would only give his first name, Hashim. > > Three-quarters of the 900 cabbies licensed to operate at the airport are Muslim, most from Somalia. It is unclear how many are adhering to this letter of Islamic law which considers the purchase, drinking and transport of alcoholic beverages a sin. > > Islam also regards the saliva from dogs to be unclean. > > Over the past 5 years, airport officials say 5,400 passengers have been turned away. > > Some had guide dogs or pets, others were carrying cases of wine from California, or liquor from duty-free shops. > > “There are times where cab after cab will refuse service, and passengers can be waiting for 20 minutes,” says Patrick Hogan, spokesman for the Metropolitan Airports Commission. “We’ve had complaints of people being asked if they had any alcoholic beverages in their luggage.” > > Hogan admits the instances have declined in recent months with the Department of Homeland Security’s restrictions on transporting liquids. > > “We were seeing an average of 77 refusals a month,” he says, “Now we’re seeing between 8 and 20.” > > The state agency that licenses cab drivers prohibits discrimination against passengers unless the driver feels his life is in danger. > > “This is a public access issue,” says Chuck Samuelson, of the American Civil Liberties Union of Minnesota, “Bottom line is we are a secular society, and that’s the way it is.” > > Currently, cabs that refuse a fare must simply go to the back of the line. [Here’s the original GD thread about it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=390347) [The original thread ended before this happened:](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-09-09-muslim-taxis_N.htm) (Edited article) > [@](#): > > Muslim cab drivers whose religious beliefs go against driving passengers who carry alcohol have lost another round in court. > > The Minnesota Court of Appeals ruled Tuesday against the cab drivers’ attempt to block penalties for refusing service. > > An ordinance adopted by the Metropolitan Airports Commission last year revokes a cab driver’s license for 30 days for refusing a fare at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. A second refusal brings a two-year revocation. > > The issue had simmered for several years before the commission decided the penalties were needed to ensure that customers would get reliable taxi service at the airport, and that compromises proposed by the drivers were impractical. So, originally, they were accomodated to by saying that they could just go to the back of the taxi line. Then, while not really a grace period, but a new ordinance changed the punishment for it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/249 "2015-07-02T14:00:06Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Not exactly the same thing, but there was considerable debate about 8 years ago about the [Muslim cab drivers in the Twin Cities versus the passengers who would be booted for travelling with dogs or alcohol.](http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2827800) Traveling with dogs or alcohol is not a fundamental right. Indeed, states can still regulate or ban the sale or consumption of alcohol. Your condo board can prohibit you from having pets. I don’t accept this as a parallel. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/250 "2015-07-02T14:05:43Z")
People who publicly express bigoted views or affect others with their bigoted actions should be called out as bigots. They should be shamed. Membership in white nationalist groups fell from the 1960s until the internet age because it was difficult for them to express their views in public and recruit new members. Now that they have safe havens online, they are growing again and Dylan Roof is an example of this safe haven for hate breeding more hate. My own views certainly were shaped in part by hearing bigoted opinions being labeled as bigoted. As a schoolchild the only thing I knew about homosexuality is that it was reviled and mocked. Hearing explicit denunciations of anti-gay bigotry did in fact affect my personal evolution. And, at some point, we have to stop caring about persuading the minority of remaining bigots to change their minds. We are better off making them afraid of expressing themselves for fear of being shamed and waiting until they die off. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/251 "2015-07-02T14:09:21Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Traveling with dogs or alcohol is not a fundamental right. Indeed, states can still regulate or ban the sale or consumption of alcohol. Your condo board can prohibit you from having pets. I don’t accept this as a parallel. The cabbies _lost_, so I don’t see why you wouldn’t accept it. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/252 "2015-07-02T14:12:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Traveling with dogs or alcohol is not a fundamental right. Indeed, states can still regulate or ban the sale or consumption of alcohol. Your condo board can prohibit you from having pets. I don’t accept this as a parallel. [A: Under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), privately owned businesses that serve the public, such as restaurants, hotels, retail stores, **taxicabs** , theaters, concert halls, and sports facilities, are prohibited from discriminating against individuals with disabilities. The ADA requires these businesses to allow people with disabilities to bring their service animals onto business premises in whatever areas customers are generally allowed.](http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm) I don’t accept your rejection. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/253 "2015-07-02T14:13:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > THat, while a more plausible argument, is still unlikely, IMO. I’m not sure how we would ever prove such a thing, so we’ll probably have to agree to disagree > Just because I think calling them bigots is unproductive doesn’t mean I wouldn’t call them out as being wrong, or explaining that their views and actions cause harm to the people I love. They hurt my loved ones, but I choose patience (not understanding). These ideas need to be actively rejected (and that can be done without engaging in name calling, which I think is actually counter-productive). It is not “name-calling”-it is _accuracy_. I realize the fact that this bigotry may be wrapped in religious trappings at times makes some want to treat it with kid gloves out of mutual respect, but that’s not a hang-up I happen to have. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/254 "2015-07-02T14:22:51Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > [A: Under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), privately owned businesses that serve the public, such as restaurants, hotels, retail stores, **taxicabs** , theaters, concert halls, and sports facilities, are prohibited from discriminating against individuals with disabilities. The ADA requires these businesses to allow people with disabilities to bring their service animals onto business premises in whatever areas customers are generally allowed.](http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm) > I don’t accept your rejection. You said service animals _or_ pets. Still, I read too fast. Yes, I’m glad the cabbies lost the fight. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/255 "2015-07-02T14:25:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is not “name-calling”-it is _accuracy_. I realize the fact that this bigotry may be wrapped in religious trappings at times makes some want to treat it with kid gloves out of mutual respect, but that’s not a hang-up I happen to have. False dichotomy. But I wouldn’t limit the “no-name calling” tactic to just religious groups. It’s odd to me that the idea that our society would be better of if we all treated each other with a modicum of respect is so controversial on this MB. Odd, and sad. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/256 "2015-07-02T14:32:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > False dichotomy. But I wouldn’t limit the “no-name calling” tactic to just religious groups. > > It’s odd to me that the idea that our society would be better of if we all treated each other with a modicum of respect is so controversial on this MB. Odd, and sad. When respect is denied repeated repeatedly, it cannot be expected to be returned freely. What _exactly_ is to be respected when one is legally denied a marriage license? Do you respect the flaunting of the law? Do you respect the bigotry? _Tell us exactly what it is we are supposed to respect in this situation._ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/257 "2015-07-02T14:39:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s odd to me that the idea that our society would be better of if we all treated each other with a modicum of respect is so controversial on this MB. Odd, and sad. I really believe you are confusing “respect”, which isn’t given out freely to everybody no matter what and can certainly be denied given the proper circumstances, with “submissiveness” and “passiveness”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/258 "2015-07-02T14:42:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > False dichotomy. But I wouldn’t limit the “no-name calling” tactic to just religious groups. > > It’s odd to me that the idea that our society would be better of if we all treated each other with a modicum of respect is so controversial on this MB. Odd, and sad. Some things do not deserve respect and should not be accorded respect, and, by extension, a person who expresses or acts upon such a thing should not be accorded respect. According that person respect is to legitimize something abhorrent. It is to legitimate its spread. Let me repeat: The kind of religious values these people are expressing or acting upon is _abhorrent_. It should not be respected, no more than views favoring incest or paedophilia or cannibalism or rape or murder should be respected. These people should be given the message that their religion is abhorrent and we should act toward them in a way that they are motivated to keep their abhorrent views to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/259 "2015-07-02T14:49:07Z")
I work as a cashier in a store that gets a lot of fundamentalist Jewish and Muslim men as customers. Occasionally, one of them will ask for a “male cashier.” It makes my blood boil, but I call a male cashier to the front. I once heard a Muslim father tell his young son “Always give girl (sic) cashiers correct change, and count it for them. They don’t know how to count money correctly.” ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/260 "2015-07-02T14:56:43Z")
Holland had gay marriage in 2001, and the debate on clerks refusing to perform marriages was in the news for a couple months afterward. There were far less of those clerks then the media suggested. Maybe a dozen or so took a vocal stand for the first months, but they lost interest when everybody else did. There was also some collegial shuffling of marriages between friendly co-working clercs. After a few months, everybody had gotten used to the new situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=14)