# Religious liberty of public employee vs. same-sex marriage rights. How to reconcile? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876 "2015-06-30T16:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/301 "2015-07-02T19:41:52Z")
> [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](#): > > No one that I can see (and certainly not I) is saying that gays should be denied their license; just exercise a little patience and understanding for those clerks that are not as…mature…as many of us, as long as they get their rights that day and know that things are being done to improve the situation–and that those improvements are carried out. A delay is unacceptable and even unconstitutional since this is a constitutionally guaranteed right. I speak of course of any attempts to [have waiting periods to do background checks for gun owners](https://www.calgunsfoundation.org/2014/08/california-gun-waiting-period-laws-ruled-unconstitutional/). That doesn’t stop [over half the states in the union](http://kff.org/womens-health-policy/state-indicator/mandatory-waiting-periods/) from legislating mandatory waiting periods before a woman can undergo a constitutionally-guaranteed medical procedure of course. I’m still of the STFU and GBTW school of thought. How about if a fire department won’t extinguish the flames of the home cohabitated by a same-sex couple because every fire fighter wants a religious exemption? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/302 "2015-07-02T19:42:25Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Yup, because denying driver’s license to people becasue of “I personally do not like who you are” has been happening for 2000 years and part of basically every society. > In that case, I’d call the supervisor. > > You miss the point. What John Mace was saying was that if a clerk couldn’t find it in him to do it at least give some cockamamie excuse and tell Mike to do it for you. NEVER insult a customer. If every clerk did this, we wouldn’t be having a problem, would we? In reality gay couples are being turned away. There has been anti-Semitism for most of the past 2000 years also, but that doesn’t excuse some fundamentalist clerk from not giving me a marriage license since we are all going to burn in hell for not loving Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/303 "2015-07-02T19:47:36Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If every clerk did this, we wouldn’t be having a problem, would we? In reality gay couples are being turned away. > There has been anti-Semitism for most of the past 2000 years also, but that doesn’t excuse some fundamentalist clerk from not giving me a marriage license since we are all going to burn in hell for not loving Jesus. Since the thread turned a new page, I am going to humbly reiterate my question from the last page. I quote you because your point is overlapping. **John Mace et al.** , if gay couples are experiencing no delays and no rebukes, to whom are you asserting they should show grace and patience? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/304 "2015-07-02T20:04:00Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Since the thread turned a new page, I am going to humbly reiterate my question from the last page. I quote you because your point is overlapping. > > **John Mace et al.** , if gay couples are experiencing no delays and no rebukes, to whom are you asserting they should show grace and patience? If Pete has problems (and his boss has given him a couple of weeks to think it over) giving marriage licences to SS couples AND he courteously excuses himself saying he has to go to the bathroom or whatever, and he gets Anne to issue it, the SS couple should show grace and patience on the guy who, while disagreeing with the law (or even being a motherfucking bigot), has not prevented them in any meaningful way in excercising their rights. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/305 "2015-07-02T20:05:38Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If every clerk did this, we wouldn’t be having a problem, would we? In reality gay couples are being turned away. > There has been anti-Semitism for most of the past 2000 years also, but that doesn’t excuse some fundamentalist clerk from not giving me a marriage license since we are all going to burn in hell for not loving Jesus. If the clerk turns people away and/or provides no swift solutions to them, then accomodation has to stop or the guy’s got to resign. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/306 "2015-07-02T20:10:41Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Since the thread turned a new page, I am going to humbly reiterate my question from the last page. I quote you because your point is overlapping. > > **John Mace et al.** , if gay couples are experiencing no delays and no rebukes, to whom are you asserting they should show grace and patience? And heck, since John Mace has declared that it doesn’t hurt anybody, no one is penalized, etc., why limit it at all? Why not keep them on forever? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/307 "2015-07-02T20:14:05Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > If Pete has problems (and his boss has given him a couple of weeks to think it over) giving marriage licences to SS couples AND he courteously excuses himself saying he has to go to the bathroom or whatever, and he gets Anne to issue it, the SS couple should show grace and patience on the guy who, while disagreeing with the law (or even being a motherfucking bigot), has not prevented them in any meaningful way in excercising their rights. In your scenario, there is no awareness on the part of the couple that would challenge their grace or patience. So, okay. Gay people should be patient with the everyday workings of an office environment. Doesn’t seem like a remarkable position to give voice to in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/308 "2015-07-02T20:24:10Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > If Pete has problems (and his boss has given him a couple of weeks to think it over) giving marriage licences to SS couples AND he courteously excuses himself saying he has to go to the bathroom or whatever, and he gets Anne to issue it, the SS couple should show grace and patience on the guy who, while disagreeing with the law (or even being a motherfucking bigot), has not prevented them in any meaningful way in excercising their rights. If Pete has some sort of indigestion or has the runs and has to hit the bathroom, or if Pete has a recognizable handicap that his coworkers have agreed to cover for, I’ve got no problem. Covering up for bigotry? Big problem. Adding to the workload of others and making U.S. citizens stand in another line for some bogus reason? Big problem. Come back to me when the rules say that “Bigotry” is now one of the things offices must make accommodations for, and we’ll talk. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/309 "2015-07-02T20:28:46Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > In your scenario, there is no awareness on the part of the couple that would challenge their grace or patience. > > So, okay. Gay people should be patient with the everyday workings of an office environment. Doesn’t seem like a remarkable position to give voice to in the first place. Let’s say that the SS couple know that Pete has moral problems with SSM (maybe they saw Pete in an anti-SSM march) and know the excuse to be false, instead of yelling “bigot” they accept it and get their licence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/310 "2015-07-02T20:36:42Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Let’s say that the SS couple know that Pete has moral problems with SSM (maybe they saw Pete in an anti-SSM march) and know the excuse to be false, instead of yelling “bigot” they accept it and get their licence. Pete isn’t being paid by the state to judge whether or not they deserve their license-the state has _already_ judged that they deserve to get their license. At this point in time it is Pete’s job, _while holding any opinion he damn well pleases_, to issue them the license the state has _already_ said they qualify for. If Pete does _not_ issue them the license the state says they qualify for, he is defying the wishes of the couple, _and the direct order of the state_. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/311 "2015-07-02T20:40:22Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If every clerk did this, we wouldn’t be having a problem, would we? In reality gay couples are being turned away. Which should not be surprising since the decision is not enforceable for 25 days after it is delivered. Some places are going to hold out “for good” as long as they can. > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Since the thread turned a new page, I am going to humbly reiterate my question from the last page. I quote you because your point is overlapping. > > **John Mace et al.** , if gay couples are experiencing no delays and no rebukes, to whom are you asserting they should show grace and patience? I don’t think I ever asserted that they should as we’ve been talking more about the clerks. But if they do have to suffer the indignity of being handed off to the OK-With-SSM clerk, realize that this is all going to be over in a few months and those Not-OK-With-SSM clerks are on their way out. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/312 "2015-07-02T20:43:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Pete isn’t being paid by the state to judge whether or not they deserve their license-the state has _already_ judged that they deserve to get their license. At this point in time it is Pete’s job, _while holding any opinion he damn well pleases_, to issue them the license the state has _already_ said they qualify for. If Pete does _not_ issue them the license the state says they qualify for, he is defying the wishes of the couple, _and the direct order of the state_. You do get that the couple get their licence without delay? Otherwise, it’s nice to see, again, the face of tolerance, I’m taking notes. It reminds me of never conceding or accomodating at all because anything less than 100% is Stalin; that’d show me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/313 "2015-07-02T20:52:20Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Let’s say that the SS couple know that Pete has moral problems with SSM (maybe they saw Pete in an anti-SSM march) and know the excuse to be false, instead of yelling “bigot” they accept it and get their licence. 1. This scenario of yours has nothing to do with this discussion. 2. Nobody here is talking about “yelling” _anything_ at _anybody_. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/314 "2015-07-02T20:58:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Which should not be surprising since the decision is not enforceable for 25 days after it is delivered. … You have a cite for this? I’ve heard it bantered about, from the people who don’t want to issue licenses. I haven’t heard it from the Supreme Court, or any other competent authority. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/315 "2015-07-02T20:59:17Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > And heck, since John Mace has declared that it doesn’t hurt anybody, no one is penalized, etc., why limit it at all? Why not keep them on forever? First of all, I didn’t say it doesn’t hurt anybody and no one is penalized. I said no one’s civil rights were being violated. That is not the same thing. I did say that their bosses (or maybe their co-workers) might have to pick up the slack for them to make things operate smoothly during the transition. That’s not something a boss is going to want to make permanent. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/316 "2015-07-02T21:01:04Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > If the assertion is that gay couples will be afforded their legal rights seemlessly, with the same speed as anyone else, and they will not be subject to expressions of rebuke during the process… > > then to whom are they being asked to show patience and grace? I work in a 9-1-1 center. The public has a right to be served by our office. But we sometimes serve certain members of the public slower - not because of the seriousness (or lack thereof) of the report, but rather due to a language barrier. So does my not speaking French, Polish, Tagalog, and Farsi mean I am rebuking my callers? I think not. Sometimes a minimal delay is acceptable, or at least not actionable. The reality is the high court has considered de minimis delays (up to about 15 minutes) to be acceptable in things like traffic stops. I somehow doubt a similar minimal delay (Clerk says he is stepping aside while his supervisor processes this SSM license application) would be actionable. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/317 "2015-07-02T21:07:39Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > You have a cite for this? I’ve heard it bantered about, from the people who don’t want to issue licenses. I haven’t heard it from the Supreme Court, or any other competent authority. Cornell Law school good authority? From [Rules of the Supreme Court](https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/supct/rule_44), PART VIII. Disposition of Cases > [@](#): > > 1. Any petition for the rehearing of any judgment or decision of the Court on the merits shall be filed within 25 days after entry of the judgment or decision, unless the Court or a Justice shortens or extends the time. … That is where the 25 day figure comes in. It does not explicitly state that judgements do not go into effect in that time, but logic dictates that the passing of that 25 day mark gives a certain finality to a judgement. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/318 "2015-07-02T21:16:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > First of all, I didn’t say it doesn’t hurt anybody and no one is penalized. > [@Supreme Court \[declines to hear\] same sex marriage cases.\[plus further developments (Ed.)\]](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/837): > > What I am proposing doesn’t penalize anyone. You two work it out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/319 "2015-07-02T21:23:39Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You two work it out. OK, I did say it didn’t penalize anyone. That was a mistake. I was probably thinking too narrowly, in that “anyone” = “anyone applying for a marriage license”. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/320 "2015-07-02T21:31:04Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Cornell Law school good authority? > > From [Rules of the Supreme Court](https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/supct/rule_44), PART VIII. Disposition of Cases > That is where the 25 day figure comes in. It does not explicitly state that judgements do not go into effect in that time, but logic dictates that the passing of that 25 day mark gives a certain finality to a judgement. It would be a good cite, except it doesn’t say anything a all about a stay of the decision. It’s a deadline for an appeal. Similarly, anyone convicted of a crime has a limited time in which to file an appeal. There is no provision which grants that the sentence must not be started until the appeal is filed. A judge might choose to grant a stay in those circumstance, but it’s not a given. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=17)