# Religious liberty of public employee vs. same-sex marriage rights. How to reconcile? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876 "2015-06-30T16:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/21 "2015-06-30T17:55:21Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > So, a gay bashing spree needs to be broken up. Fine. > > What about a robbery that happened two minutes ago? The robber is down the street. The robbery is over, so no current “serious threat” right? > > This is why drawing a line anywhere becomes capricious and ridiculous. As I said in another thread: > I want to know why it’s “deeply held religious beliefs”. Why does religion suddenly become that important. I have deeply held beliefs but am not religious, so do my beliefs do not count? > > What if your deeply held religious beliefs were suddenly changed. Like you are a member of the Episcopal Church and were against gay marriage, but then they changed their mind (in 2012) and are now for it? Can you no longer hold the belief since your religion changed? Just to be clear, I’m not arguing that we are legally or even morally obligated to temporarily accommodate those clerks who are having trouble adjusting to the new reality. If we’re talking about either of those things, I’d say: fire their asses. What I am talking about is going an extra mile and recognizing that everyone doesn’t adjust to change at the same speed. Instead, we can choose to make some accommodations in the interest of promoting civility. That is all. We can choose to do this, not we must choose. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/22 "2015-06-30T17:57:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That is not the operative word or phrase. “Public safety” is. A clerk not issuing a marriage license is not a threat to public safety in the same way a cop declining to break up a gay-bashing spree is. What if they had refused to issue a drivers license to a woman, or a buisness license to an African american? How about denying a gay pride parade permit that is to happen on a Sunday? What is the limit on allowing someone to deny a constitutional right due to their own bigotry? I say we should have zero tolerance for bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/23 "2015-06-30T18:01:47Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > What if they had refused to issue a drivers license to a woman, or a buisness license to an African american? Since women were not granted the right to drive last week, nor were African Americans granted the right to own businesses last week, I’d say: Too bad. Do the job you knew you would have to do when you took it. > [@](#): > > How about denying a gay pride parade permit that is to happen on a Sunday? Were Sunday gay pride parades illegal last week? No, I didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/24 "2015-06-30T18:04:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Since women were not granted the right to drive last week, nor were African Americans granted the right to own businesses last week, I’d say: Too bad. Do the job you knew you would have to do when you took it. > > Were Sunday gay pride parades illegal last week? No, I didn’t think so. So that justifies violating core civil rights? Because bigots can’t be expected to do their jobs and follow court orders? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/25 "2015-06-30T18:09:18Z")
Without a clause in a ruling, when SCOTUS has ruled that you have been violating civil rights the change should be immediate. There is no if’s ands or buts about it. They were wrong, they need to change behavior immediately. They have no right to a “warm up period” to stop violating the rights of the citizens they serve just because their bigoted hearts are broken. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/26 "2015-06-30T18:23:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, I’m not arguing that we are legally or even morally obligated to temporarily accommodate those clerks who are having trouble adjusting to the new reality. … You make it sound like they’re mildly retarded and simply don’t understand the new procedures. No, they are knowingly and deliberately disobeying an order from the US Supreme Court. You mentioned earlier allowing them some time, and you mentioned “within months”. I’d give them 48 hours, and that applies to everyone up and down the line. If the state attorney general is still telling clerks they should refuse to issue licences, I might opt to give the clerks a couple of more days while I slap the AG into jail if he refuses to reverse his order. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/27 "2015-06-30T18:39:54Z")
Any time at all given to them should be under suspension without pay, and only for the purpose of letting them reconsider their decision in the light of imminently losing their employment. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/28 "2015-06-30T18:41:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, I’m not arguing that we are legally or even morally obligated to temporarily accommodate those clerks who are having trouble adjusting to the new reality. If we’re talking about either of those things, I’d say: fire their asses. What I am talking about is going an extra mile and recognizing that everyone doesn’t adjust to change at the same speed. Instead, we can choose to make some accommodations in the interest of promoting civility. > > That is all. We can choose to do this, not we must choose. As a country, we are _done_ with choosing to accommodate the bigots. We _already_ did that. That part is _over_. Get it? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/29 "2015-06-30T18:45:21Z")
But … but … how could \*both \*sides be at fault then? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/30 "2015-06-30T18:45:49Z")
Even with children, you don’t say, "Billie, I need you to stop hitting your brother in about a week or two. Do you think you could get used to not hitting your brother in that amount of time?? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/31 "2015-06-30T18:55:06Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > There’s a human right to get paid for not doing your job? > > Look, if you receive a lawful order from your superior, and say _no,_ then you’re choosing “hit the road” over “do your job”; it’s not a human-rights violation, it’s what a job _is_. This. Because if there’s some right to keep one’s job while not doing the parts of it one doesn’t like because one has a religious objection to them, we can all invent our own sets of deeply-held religious beliefs, _Hobby Lobby_-style, and only have to do the parts of our jobs that we really really like. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/32 "2015-06-30T19:24:47Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This. > > Because if there’s some right to keep one’s job while not doing the parts of it one doesn’t like because one has a religious objection to them, we can all invent our own sets of deeply-held religious beliefs, _Hobby Lobby_-style, and only have to do the parts of our jobs that we really really like. Ah, but to qualify as a legitimate religious belief, they have to be sincere, which is a fancy legal term for held by conservative christians. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/33 "2015-06-30T19:46:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Even with children, you don’t say, "Billie, I need you to stop hitting your brother in about a week or two. Do you think you could get used to not hitting your brother in that amount of time?? We’re not allowing anyone to commit any act of violence on another person. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So that justifies violating core civil rights? Because bigots can’t be expected to do their jobs and follow court orders? I’m not advocating that anyone’s civil rights be violated. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/34 "2015-06-30T19:50:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not advocating that anyone’s civil rights be violated. The hell you’re not. You’re advocating that some gay couples have their civil right to marry be violated until a few clerks either resign or get over their snits. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/35 "2015-06-30T19:50:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not advocating that anyone’s civil rights be violated. That is _exactly_ what you are advocating. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/36 "2015-06-30T19:54:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Do the job you were hired to do or find a different job. That’s all there is to it. Facilitating same sex marriage might not have been part of the job description when they got hired. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/37 "2015-06-30T19:57:35Z")
It’s not clear to me that the reconciliation process is (or has to be) any more complicated than “do your job or resign.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/38 "2015-06-30T19:58:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That is _exactly_ what you are advocating. [Nope.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18480563&postcount=808) > [@John Mace](#): > > > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > > > What you advocate is accepting further deprivation of rights, and that’s what the whole fuss was about in the first place, John. > > If you read all my posts on this subject, you’ll see that no one would be deprived of their rights. I specifically said that the county elected officials needed to assure that someone was available to issue licenses to same sex couples. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/39 "2015-06-30T19:58:50Z")
Fire them _yesterday_. Same goes for any pharmacist who refuses to fill a legal prescription. Door, ass. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/40 "2015-06-30T19:59:30Z")
Alito’s dissent seems prescient given this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=3)