# Religious liberty of public employee vs. same-sex marriage rights. How to reconcile? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876 "2015-06-30T16:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/441 "2015-07-07T23:38:50Z")
Elvis, That’s up to the individual. Abandoning a job costs money and may not result in a future recommendation. It’s the employee’s choice. I suspect some will reapply for the same job, and when it is refused will claim religious discrimination. Crane ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/442 "2015-07-08T00:50:05Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Elvis, > > That’s up to the individual. Abandoning a job costs money and may not result in a future recommendation. It’s the employee’s choice. > > I suspect some will reapply for the same job, and when it is refused will claim religious discrimination. > > Crane Ah, but the folks mentioned in the article are confident that their deity will take care of them (translation: find them some other job). It provides, after all. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/443 "2015-07-08T00:52:24Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Is there any reason why US citizens, conducting normal business, should be subjected to the arbitrary whims of various believers? Of course not. It’s just that some believers don’t understand that “freedom of religion” also means freedom FROM religion - other peoples’ religions you don’t believe in. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/444 "2015-07-08T08:36:10Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > “b” is my hypothetical, deal with it. Well, as long as you’re admitting it’s not based in reality… ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/445 "2015-07-08T13:52:50Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > 1. If a registry office is ready and able to issue whatever is required for a same-sex marriage, does it really matter if not every emeployee in that office is ready to do the work? Yes; the fact that the ones who are not ready to do their jobs have not yet been retrained, reassigned, or dismissed is proof positive that their supervisors need to be retrained, reassigned, or dismissed, which is a serious problem. > [@](#): > > 1. What would we say to a conservative Catholic employee who will not issue a marriage licence to a divorced Catholic? Or an orthodox Jew who refuses to issue a licence for a Jew-Gentile marriage? What about a member of the Church of the Aryan Nations who will not issue a licence to an interracial couple? What about a Quaker who refuses to sign the purchase order for a lethal injection for purposes of capital punishment? “Buh-bye; don’t let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya!” > [@](#): > > 1. Is there are distinction to be made between an employee who was hired before SSM became legal in all 50 States, and one who is hired at a marriage registry office AFTER June 26, 2015? No. The job changed; the employees need to adapt accordingly. For example, we have some people here who used to write documents by hand and send them to the typists; now, they use computers. The management didn’t make special accommodations to keep the old system in place for them if they didn’t like the new one. > [@](#): > > 1. Does the government office have a responsibility to find the protesting employee another government job? As a practical matter, reassignment might be the simplest solution all around, but they don’t have an active responsibility to provide it. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/446 "2015-07-08T13:55:49Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > There’s a human right to get paid for not doing your job? I propose that people who raise these objections to doing their jobs might as well be provided with free Cadillac and plastic cards redeemable for filet mignon and caviar. If they want to live the welfare-bum stereotype, they might as well go whole hog about it. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/447 "2015-07-08T13:58:33Z")
In any case, points to the Decatur County clerks for putting their money where their mouth is. But now the REAL test is for the actual Decatur County _government_ to act to promptly fill the vacancies with willing and able applicants or transferees and resume service ASAP. Then we’ll know if they’re serious about upholding the Law. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/448 "2015-07-08T15:20:32Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > No, you don’t. It’s treating as exactly the same: > a) “Burn them fags, they’ll continue burning in hell!!!” > b) I’d rather no issue a licence if another person can do it. I forgot to consider option c) all of the above. [This nice lady in Kentucky](http://www.towleroad.com/2015/07/aclu-sues-kentucky-county-clerk-stopped-issuing-marriage-licenses-couples-video/) [isn’t just politely declining](http://www.towleroad.com/2015/07/rowan-county-kentucky/)and asking a co-worker to help instead. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/449 "2015-07-08T16:59:34Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Yes; the fact that the ones who are not ready to do their jobs have not yet been retrained, reassigned, or dismissed is proof positive that their supervisors need to be retrained, reassigned, or dismissed, which is a serious problem. Perhaps their supervisors wisely checked with legal and found case history is not so clear cut? Not ready to do their jobs is not enough if that objection is religiously based. It must be an “undue hardship” on the employer to justify not providing a religious accommodation. [From the EEOC](http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/wysk/workplace_religious_accommodation.cfm) > [@](#): > > **Are employers required to accommodate the religious beliefs and practices of applicants and employees?** > > Yes. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits employment discrimination based on religion. This includes refusing to accommodate an employee’s sincerely held religious beliefs or practices unless the accommodation would impose an undue hardship (more than a minimal burden on operation of the business). > … > \*\* How does an employer determine if a religious accommodation imposes more than a minimal burden on operation of the business (or an “undue hardship”)?\*\* > > … Customer preference or co-worker disgruntlement does not justify denying a religious accommodation. > > It is advisable for employers to make a case-by-case determination of any requested religious accommodations, and to train managers accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/450 "2015-07-08T17:06:28Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You’re right - a) is namecalling; b) is denial of a Constitutional right. The latter is worse. > > And the people fighting for option b) are not including the “if…” clause - it’s strictly “I’d rather not issue a licence”. Period. If another person does it, I don’t see a denial of constitutional rights. And I think everyone agrees that the state is still liable if marriage licenses are not being issued to gay couples. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/451 "2015-07-08T17:11:18Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > No. The job changed; the employees need to adapt accordingly. For example, we have some people here who used to write documents by hand and send them to the typists; now, they use computers. The management didn’t make special accommodations to keep the old system in place for them if they didn’t like the new one. Did they have a religious objection to the new system? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/452 "2015-07-08T19:13:42Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I forgot to consider option c) all of the above. > > [This nice lady in Kentucky](http://www.towleroad.com/2015/07/aclu-sues-kentucky-county-clerk-stopped-issuing-marriage-licenses-couples-video/) [isn’t just politely declining](http://www.towleroad.com/2015/07/rowan-county-kentucky/)and asking a co-worker to help instead. You seem, repeatedly, to have read my idea incorrectly. My point was to provide two extreme positions: one were they would not even think about giving the licence and one were they try their best to to what they think is right and still serve the customer. My point has been proven again that 99% is the same as 0%. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/453 "2015-07-08T20:07:17Z")
I’m not sure how that proves your point. Can you give a concrete example – even a worked hypothetical one – of someone treating 99% agreement as the same as 0% agreement? I can’t think of an instance of that happening. It may be an issue of perception: 99% agreement gets the response you consider proportionate for 0% agreement, whereas the response to actual 0% agreement would be even harsher. Or you may be looking at 0% agreement and somehow seeing 99% agreement. Or I may be wrong. But I can’t be sure. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/454 "2015-07-09T13:14:41Z")
Or maybe it’s something that can’t be really scaled that granularly down to 99%-of-the-way; for instance, calling it marriage vs using some other neologism is pretty much a 0/1 alternative. Obviously in the example given earlier alternative (b) is the much more civil one, but it still is NOT something for which to say “good enough, no need to progress beyond that”. It’s not “anything but 100% unconditional/unquestioning or else you’re Stalin”, it’s “not good enough, do better”. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/455 "2015-07-10T16:31:28Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > I’m not sure how that proves your point. Can you give a concrete example – even a worked hypothetical one – of someone treating 99% agreement as the same as 0% agreement? > > I can’t think of an instance of that happening. It may be an issue of perception: 99% agreement gets the response you consider proportionate for 0% agreement, whereas the response to actual 0% agreement would be even harsher. Or you may be looking at 0% agreement and somehow seeing 99% agreement. Or I may be wrong. But I can’t be sure. Well, here on the SDMB > [@DrFidelius](#): > > Difference of degree, not of kind. > [@Gyrate](#): > > You’re right - a) is namecalling; b) is denial of a Constitutional right. **The latter is worse.** (my bolding) > > And the people fighting for option b) are not including the “if…” clause - it’s strictly “I’d rather not issue a licence”. Period. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > Or maybe it’s something that can’t be really scaled that granularly down to 99%-of-the-way; for instance, calling it marriage vs using some other neologism is pretty much a 0/1 alternative. Obviously in the example given earlier alternative (b) is the much more civil one, but it still is NOT something for which to say “good enough, no need to progress beyond that”. It’s not “anything but 100% unconditional/unquestioning or else you’re Stalin”, it’s “not good enough, do better”. I get that, from your perspective, it is still wrong, but I sincerely appreciate the comment “_not good enough, do better_” because it closes the gap immensly. It acknowledges progress while still striving for the desired outcome. Such a response makes dialogue and improvement easier. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/456 "2015-07-10T16:57:56Z")
There’s a quote attributed to comedian Dick Gregory on the “go slow” approach, along the lines of “Get your foot off my Grandmother’s neck! Now, goddamit, not one toe at a time!” I appreciate that it takes time for people to adjust their attitudes. But it is unjust to ask the victims of injustice to tolerate further injustice purely for the sake of sparing their persecutors’ feelings. That is a ludicrous position, particularly as this change has already been a long time coming. Gay people have a Constitutional right to get married. Period. We are not requiring the bigots to be happy about it, but neither are we permitting them to withhold that right from anyone for one second longer. To do otherwise is to condone that injustice. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/457 "2015-07-11T01:01:05Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I support gay marriage equality 100% (since I am gay and married here in Canada) and I celebrated the SCOTUS decision of last Friday in support of my American brothers and sisters. > > And predictably, we are witnessing the same phenomenon as other countries with marriage equality: conservative religious believers whose conscience will not allow them to issue licences, or in any way condone same-sex marriage. Several cases of this kind emerged when Canada legalized ssm in 2005. First reports are that some counties in Texas are getting push-back from their employees, and I predict thre will be more cases in other states before long. > > I have too much respect for for EVERYONE’S human rights to simply say: “Tell the bastards to do their job or hit the road.” > > Because this matter concerns a lot more than just gay marriage rights, what we need is an overall rule that applies everywhere and that respects religious liberty. > > Just to get the discussion started, here are some points to ponder: > > 1. If a registry office is ready and able to issue whatever is required for a same-sex marriage, does it really matter if not every emeployee in that office is ready to do the work? > > 2. What would we say to a conservative Catholic employee who will not issue a marriage licence to a divorced Catholic? Or an orthodox Jew who refuses to issue a licence for a Jew-Gentile marriage? What about a member of the Church of the Aryan Nations who will not issue a licence to an interracial couple? What about a Quaker who refuses to sign the purchase order for a lethal injection for purposes of capital punishment? > > 3. Is there are distinction to be made between an employee who was hired before SSM became legal in all 50 States, and one who is hired at a marriage registry office AFTER June 26, 2015? > > 4. Does the government office have a responsibility to find the protesting employee another government job? Claims of religious liberty infringement didn’t work for discriminating against blacks back when, so I personally don’t see it doing much better now for gays. Religious liberty discrimination has been ruled in recent times to not extend past strictly religious institutions like churches. Not even religiously affiliated universities are immune. This is why you will never see a church being forced to marry a gay couple or a previously divorced couple or have black congregants if the church doesn’t want to do it. And I am absolutely fine with that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/458 "2015-07-11T01:27:48Z")
The problem potentially is that sexual orientation has not been assigned as a protected class yet as far as I know. Whereas race is and has been for a long time. I welcome a lawyer type to clarify. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/459 "2015-07-11T01:36:21Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > The problem potentially is that sexual orientation has not been assigned as a protected class yet as far as I know. Whereas race is and has been for a long time. > > I welcome a lawyer type to clarify. IANAL, but doesn’t the ruling itself imply that sexual orientation is protected, despite Kennedy once again contorting himself to avoid actually dropping orientation into a given level of scrutiny? ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/460 "2015-07-11T21:02:52Z")
Denial of a Constitutional right is actually worse than being called names (which is why I’m really starting to dislike the word “offended”). I think the problem I’m having understanding this is that I’m with **JRDelerious** in seeing it as a binary. What’s 99% of the way between refusing to issue a license and issuing one? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=24)