# Religious liberty of public employee vs. same-sex marriage rights. How to reconcile? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876 "2015-06-30T16:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Verily](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e9a140/32.png) [@Verily](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Verily)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/61 "2015-06-30T20:28:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If an accommodation can be made where others in the office can process the marriage license, **why do we have to fire the person who is refusing to do so** out of deeply held religious beliefs? Because they’re _refusing to do their job_. When you work for someone else, you don’t get to pick and choose which tasks you want to do and which ones you won’t do out of the ones you’re assigned. Their job is to issue marriage licenses. The law now allows marriages to be same sex. They don’t get to say, “I’m only going to issue licenses for the marriages that were legal when I took this job.” That’s illegal discrimination. If they have religious objections to their own job, they’re in the wrong line of work. The fact that this is effectively a new duty added to the job description doesn’t buy them any sympathy from me; if they were fine with how their job was before, but they object to it now, they can look for other work. Same-sex marriage is legal now, so marriage license clerks don’t get to discriminate anymore. Period. If they can’t handle that, they don’t get to be marriage license clerks anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/62 "2015-06-30T20:28:39Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > When they were hired, issuing marriage licences to couples who can legally get married was part of their job description. Nobody promised them that the definition of who can get married would never change. If next year, their state decides that the minimum marriage age should be reduced from 18 to 16, for example, they are not allowed to refuse marriage licences to 16-year-olds because they think it is too young. It sort of depends on how you phrase then job description doesn’t it? If their job description didn’t used to include doing something that they had a religious objection to (because it was illegal) and a change in law means now they do, I can see how some might call that a change in job description. > [@](#): > > If you want a real-life example. State laws that made interracial marriage illegal were struck down by the Supreme Court in 1967. So in the (mostly southern) states that had formerly restricted marriage to members of the same race, clerks were now required to issue licences to mixed-race couples, no matter how they felt about it. > > To use your sentence, Damuri, “Facilitating interracial marriage might not have been part of the job description when they got hired.” And you think that there were not accomodations made for people who had religious objections to interracial marriage? People had to sue local governments in some places and when the local governments got sued, they figured out how to deal with things pretty quickly. > [@](#): > > Has anyone stopped to consider that public employees are paid from the taxes of ALL the people, and that gay people pay taxes like everyone else? I don’t see how that is particularly relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/63 "2015-06-30T20:31:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Ah, so they took the job when there was no one really thought they would be issuing marriage licenses to gay couples but since they have had notice that this might be coming down the pipe, they should have quit before it became required so they should just get with the program and damn their deeply held religious beliefs? > > If an accommodation can be made where others in the office can process the marriage license, why do we have to fire the person who is refusing to do so out of deeply held religious beliefs? Yes, they should quit. I can’t think of a single case where a worker was allowed to excuse himself from issuing licenses because she/he disagreed with them on religious principles, and this would be a damn bad place to start such a practice. Can you imagine a clerk saying “I can’t personally issue you a license because I deeply believe races shouldn’t mix.”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/64 "2015-06-30T20:36:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And you think that there were not accomodations made for people who had religious objections to interracial marriage? People had to sue local governments in some places and when the local governments got sued, they figured out how to deal with things pretty quickly. Does this not tell you that 1. It happened in the past-I’d like to think we are better than that now. 2. The fact that they had to sue shows that it was a bad idea anyway. It merely slows down the process. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/65 "2015-06-30T20:38:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > **John Mace** , you are still talking as if this decision was somehow “sprung” on them in some sort of “OHMYGHOD! What just happened??” sort of way, and this is absolute bullshit. This SCOTUS ruling has been in the works for a while and all the clerks knew it, and I doubt very many of them didn’t attend mandatory meetings about what might happen if the ruling went either way. None of them were caught unawares by what happened, but a few seem to think that local politics will allow them to get away with the same old shit. [From the other thread:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18480731&postcount=834) > [@John Mace](#): > > I agree that “they should have seen it coming” or “they should have known there was good possibility it would come to pass” is the best argument against my position. But in the end, I’m only making an argument about graciousness, not about fairness. Those are two different things. I would say it’s perfectly fair to fire their asses because this wasn’t a huge surprise. > > Also, I’m thinking more about states where there was no court ruling at all on SSM, and for which legal SSM only happened last week. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/66 "2015-06-30T20:39:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Facilitating same sex marriage might not have been part of the job description when they got hired. It is now. If they don’t like their new job description, they can find another job. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/67 "2015-06-30T20:44:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [From the other thread:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18480731&postcount=834) You have not answered the question why the clerks deserve the graciousness, and not the couples which wish to get married. All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal…why are you willing to extend graciousness to the clerks but not to the couples? Why are the couples “less equal”? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/68 "2015-06-30T20:46:41Z")
On reflection, I am pretty much okay with **John Mace** ’s view that we should give clerks’ staffs a few months to find new jobs and accommodate them in the meantime, if possible. I am certainly not okay with the clerks (it’s important to distinguish between Clerks of Court, who are generally in charge of the offices, and deputy clerks, who are the people physically filling out and delivering licenses) who are refusing to issue any licenses at all. Except [this lady](http://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2015/06/30/grenada-circuit-clerk-resigns-over-same-sex-marriage/29508097/), who at least understands that her stupid beliefs are her problem and not those of the people she was elected to serve. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And you think that there were not accomodations made for people who had religious objections to interracial marriage? People had to sue local governments in some places and when the local governments got sued, they figured out how to deal with things pretty quickly. We don’t make those accommodations any more. If anyone is suggesting this should be a permanent thing, that’s dumb. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Without a clause in a ruling, when SCOTUS has ruled that you have been violating civil rights the change should be immediate. There is no if’s ands or buts about it. > > They were wrong, they need to change behavior immediately. No “clause” is required. The losing parties have 25 days to petition the clerk of the Supreme Court\* for rehearing. Technically, the ruling is not effective until that deadline passes or a petition for rehearing is denied. After the 25 days, the clerk issues a mandate to any state courts whose decisions were under appeal. It’s true that everyone knows SCOTUS is not going to grant rehearing, and that waiting 25 days is a delaying tactic. It is, however, a legal one. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/69 "2015-06-30T20:47:09Z")
As a public servant, can I simply claim as my civil right the ability to ignore laws enacted after I began my job so many years ago? Sure, I’m not a religious person, but it would seem to violate my civil rights to require that I be religious in order to ignore certain laws. Plus, my job would be much easier if I could simply decline to enforce complex new laws, and never have to read what the legislature or the courts have been doing recently. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/70 "2015-06-30T20:47:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [From the other thread:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18480731&postcount=834) And this was my response from that other thread: > [@](#): > > They had television, radio, Facebook and a shitload of office talk over the last few years. Not a single one of them lived in a intellectual and/or informational vacuum, John Mace. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/71 "2015-06-30T20:48:32Z")
**RNALTB** : Thank-you. That was very gracious of you. 🙂 > [@Czarcasm](#): > > And this was my response from that other thread: I agree. But that is not a counter-argument to what my position is. I agree that it would be completely fair to fire them. I am trying to go a bit beyond fairness in the spirit of being gracious. You needn’t agree with me. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/72 "2015-06-30T20:51:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **RNALTB** : Thank-you. That was very gracious of you. 🙂 So once again you ignore the questions on why clerks rights trump the couples? Why are they more special? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/73 "2015-06-30T20:53:12Z")
Keep in mind that someone who gets fired for this is probably going to sue in court. They might win. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/74 "2015-06-30T20:55:43Z")
On what basis? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/75 "2015-06-30T20:56:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Keep in mind that someone who gets fired for this is probably going to sue in court. They might win. Keep in mind that people who are discriminated against can sue too…and might win. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/76 "2015-06-30T20:56:46Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So once again you ignore the questions on why clerks rights trump the couples? I’m not making an argument based on the “clerks’ rights”. I have to honestly ask-- do you really not understand that I am not making a legal or a moral argument? I’m not saying it is illegal to fire the clerks (although it might be, I don’t honestly know). I’m not even saying it would be unfair to fire them. I’ve posted that several times. I’m just saying that, if it were up to me, I would try and make it easy for the clerks to find another job by not firing them immediately. And I would take whatever steps I could to make sure that same sex couples were able to get their marriage licenses. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/77 "2015-06-30T20:58:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Keep in mind that people who are discriminated against can sue too…and might win. Keep in mind that by the time their case come to trial, my proposed transition period would be over and the decision would be moot. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/78 "2015-06-30T21:00:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Keep in mind that people who are discriminated against can sue too…and might win. And, in fact, already have. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/79 "2015-06-30T21:02:30Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > They are still not being asked to facilitate entry into marriage as understood by their religion. They are being asked to provide a legally mandated license to participate in a government recognized contract bearing the same name. Yeah, this is pretty much my take on it, too. I assume that in the counties in question, issuing a license to someone else must obligate the issuer to also get gay married, right? Because otherwise I don’t see how it’s condoning anything, or has anything whatsoever to do with the issuer’s beliefs. If I refused to do anything that might allow some other person to perform action that I dislike, however indirectly, I’d pretty much be unemployable. And, for example, I’m against public money being spent to endorse religions and “faith based initiatives,” but I still pay the taxes that allow it to happen. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/80 "2015-06-30T21:04:43Z")
**John Mace** , I’m not clear on how no one’s rights are affected for what you’re advocating. Let’s say a gay couple goes to get a marriage license and is refused by the clerk (and the clerk’s boss and other clerks are away from the office for the afternoon, or something). What are you advocating should happen? How are the gay couple’s rights not being violated? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=5)