# Religious liberty of public employee vs. same-sex marriage rights. How to reconcile? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876 "2015-06-30T16:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/81 "2015-06-30T21:20:34Z")
I’ve got a more fundamental question here. The Bible tells these people what they should do. But does it tell them to keep anyone else from sinning? (I seem to remember something about casting the first stone.) And I’m pretty sure that the Bible says nothing explicitly about SSM. Hell, one might argue about enabling gay sex being wrong - but marriage licenses don’t do that. (Some might say quite the opposite.) Some other examples. Say an Orthodox Jew is a driver who supplies food to a prison, and is a government employee. Not asking him to work on Saturday means you are not asking him to directly violate his beliefs by him doing something he is not supposed to. But what if he refuses to transport a load of bacon to the prison? (I doubt anyone would.) Mormons are not allowed to drink. Yet, there are plenty of bars in SLC, and I assume they have liquor licenses. And I’m sure at least some of the clerks granting them are Mormon. Is there justification for them not be willing to write licenses? Or zoning permits for Starbucks? Or soda fountains, back when Coke was illegal for them? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/82 "2015-06-30T21:22:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not making an argument based on the “clerks’ rights”. I have to honestly ask-- do you really not understand that I am not making a legal or a moral argument? I’m not saying it is illegal to fire the clerks (although it might be, I don’t honestly know). I’m not even saying it would be unfair to fire them. I’ve posted that several times. > > I’m just saying that, if it were up to me, I would try and make it easy for the clerks to find another job by not firing them immediately. And I would take whatever steps I could to make sure that same sex couples were able to get their marriage licenses. I’m genuinely very sorry, but this still smacks of “Will no one think of the poor bigots?”. Bigots are comfortable in jobs where they can be bigots, so what jobs might you be transitioning them to? If you start transferring them to certain jobs where they don’t have public exposure, and the people already there find out that that’s where you send the bigots, be prepared for the shitstorm that follows. BTW, if a gay couple stands in line to get their license and anything other then them getting their license issued to them happens, like them being told to wait until someone can be found that is willing to work with them, or being told that “for their convenience” could they please stand over in the special “gay” line off to the side, _they are being discriminated against._ ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/83 "2015-06-30T21:23:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Government employees, at the county clerk level, are likely to be under the Civil Service system (details vary by state). Even so, refusal to do your damn job is a firing offense, it just takes more of a process than on the outside where it’s pretty much immediate. Are there situations where the employee is protected when the scope of work changes? I’d be hard pressed to argue that this constitutes a scope change, but what do I know. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/84 "2015-06-30T21:26:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Facilitating same sex marriage might not have been part of the job description when they got hired. No, but upholding and following the law of the United States of America was. \*All \*the laws, not just the ones that they like. Hell, training the newbies wasn’t part of my job description when I got hired, but it’s what I do now. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Without a clause in a ruling, when SCOTUS has ruled that you have been violating civil rights the change should be immediate. There is no if’s ands or buts about it. > > They were wrong, they need to change behavior immediately. > > They have no right to a “warm up period” to stop violating the rights of the citizens they serve just because their bigoted hearts are broken. This needs to be engraved in marble and hung up in every county courthouse. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/85 "2015-06-30T21:29:00Z")
Except for the part that’s inaccurate, presumably. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > **RNALTB** : Thank-you. That was very gracious of you. 🙂 Eh, when you’re right, you’re right. What’s with this L you keep adding to my name, eh? :suspicious eyes: ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/86 "2015-06-30T21:33:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Keep in mind that someone who gets fired for this is probably going to sue in court. They might win. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > On what basis? Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (somewhat ironically) prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of religion, and requires employers to make reasonable accommodations. Having said that, employers may discriminate against employees who cannot perform essential job functions. Whether issuing marriage licenses is an essential function likely depends on the size of the clerk’s office in question. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Keep in mind that people who are discriminated against can sue too…and might win. Sure. But they’re not going to win if the harm they are suing over is being made to wait five minutes until another deputy clerk is available. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/87 "2015-06-30T21:39:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sure. But they’re not going to win if the harm they are suing over is being made to wait five minutes until another deputy clerk is available. If gay people have to wait while the straight people that arrived after them get served first, how is that not discrimination? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/88 "2015-06-30T21:42:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > . But does it tell them to keep anyone else from sinning? (I seem to remember something about casting the first stone.) Depends on how you read the passages. There are these three that come to mind (one deals with rebuking the sinner, the other tells the sinner to kill themself, and the third to help a sinner out). Luke 17:1-4 And he said to his disciples, “Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin. Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” Matthew 18:6-9 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. James 5:20 Let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/89 "2015-06-30T21:43:56Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > If gay people have to wait while the straight people that arrived after them get served first, how is that not discrimination? It is. It’s just probably not actionable. _De minimis non curat lex_. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/90 "2015-06-30T22:18:52Z")
> [@Verily](#): > > The fact that this is effectively a new duty added to the job description Except it isn’t. It’s an increased pool of clients for the existing duty. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/91 "2015-06-30T22:40:28Z")
This recalcitrance is going to up on until the person at the top (maybe a governor, AG, or Chief Justice) issues explicit instruction to all the clerks to issue the licenses, and rescinds any previous instructions to the contrary. Then there will still be a few who will refuse because of their religion or whatever. Won’t they be surprised when their Grand Poobah supporter of last week busts them out of their job the next day. Because now the disobedience will be toward the local PTB instead of a Black president or some crazy librul eastern court. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/92 "2015-06-30T22:42:07Z")
Just to flip this around, what if a state passes a law (or has its state supreme court rule) that it will move from _may-issue_ concealed-carry permits to _shall-issue_ CCPs. A state employee who previously used his discretion to not issue CCPs (because of deep-seated moral conviction) now is told that he must and he refuses. Should he lose his job? Sure. Transfer him to another department, maybe, but there’s no obligation to wait until he sorts out his feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/93 "2015-06-30T22:47:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, I wouldn’t use that term, but yeah, I sort of am. I don’t expect every human in the country to adjust to rapidly changes social mores at the same rate. > > Hmm. Sounds like we agree on the principle, but just disagree on the timetable. This sounds to me like a claim that these recalcitrant clerks have some form of mental illness, or perhaps even some form of PTSD. Is that a fair interpretation? Also, I would point out that this isn’t in any way comparable to rapidly changing social mores. This is about adjusting to the law. They are completely welcome to continue believing gay sex is an abomination and gab with their friends about how the world is going to hell. But during a few hours every day, they have to fill out and sign forms that they’re uncomfortable with. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/94 "2015-06-30T22:48:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just to flip this around, what if a state passes a law (or has its state supreme court rule) that it will move from _may-issue_ concealed-carry permits to _shall-issue_ CCPs. A state employee who previously used his discretion to not issue CCPs (because of deep-seated moral conviction) now is told that he must and he refuses. Should he lose his job? Yes. Having a job means doing things that you wouldn’t otherwise do in exchange for money. If you’re not willing do to the things that you’re being offered money to do, then you’re free to find someone who’ll pay you to do things you’re more comfortable with. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/95 "2015-06-30T23:05:28Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > This recalcitrance is going to up on until the person at the top (maybe a governor, AG, or Chief Justice) issues explicit instruction to all the clerks to issue the licenses, and rescinds any previous instructions to the contrary. Or does the contrary, like [Roy Moore in Alabama](http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/06/roy_moores_lawyer_to_gov_bentl.html)(whom you may have heard of before). > [@](#): > > “Public officials are ministers of God assigned the duty of punishing the wicked and protecting the righteous. You cannot serve two masters: you must pick – God or Satan.” > … > “‘I must follow the law,’ you say. Law? What law? There is no law anymore, there’s just opinion. One day this, one day that. When the law becomes merely the opinion of a handful of people on the courts, there is no longer any law. There is tyranny. There is chaos. But there is no law.” And, more to the point: > [@](#): > > Use your authority and every legal angle to oppose the tyrants! If necessary, just say, ‘No.’ It is not rebellion for you to say, ‘Your interpretation (the U.S. Supreme Court) of the Constitution is wrong, beyond your authority, and detrimental to this nation.’ In fact, it’s your duty. You’re not opposing the rule of law, you’re upholding it by saying that." The South shall rise again! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/96 "2015-06-30T23:14:11Z")
I wonder if Ol’ Roy is going to pay the legal fees of all the clerks who get tried for civil rights violations out of his own pocket? ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/97 "2015-06-30T23:20:35Z")
It seems to me the job of issuing licenses is not a subjective one. It’s not the clerk’s job to say “this is a good marriage.” They don’t have to congratulate the couple, or even smile at them. The clerk’s job is to issue the license if the applicants are legally permitted to marry each other, have properly filled out the necessary forms, and have paid the required fee; issuing the license indicated no more than that those things are the case. So issuing the license shouldn’t violate anyone’s religious beliefs. One might even argue that if your religion frowns on lying, you have to issue the license. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/98 "2015-06-30T23:44:49Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > Marriage offered by government is not the same as marriage offered by religions. > > Marriage as offered by religion acknowledges a bringing together of two (or more) persons and sets specific rights and obligations that they have to each other. These obligations are static throughout the religion and are independent on what civil authority the married people reside in. > > Marriage as offered by government is the recognition of two persons coming together to create a family unit and an outlining of the rights and responsibilities that those people have to each other. These rights change from government to government and are independent of what religion the participants belong to. > > It is unfortunate that the same word is used for both only in that it allows for equivocation between the two. Personally I think the biggest mistake that contributes to this is the fact that clergy are empowered to act as representatives of the state in solemnizing the union. > > Given that the two senses of marriage are clearly separate from each other I don’t feel that there is anything to reconcile and that persons should perform their duties as directed without thought for their religious feelings. I mean, would it be considered allowable for a Catholic government employee to refuse a marriage certificate to a Hindi couple as they are not following the tenets of the Catholic religions idea of marriage? I agree. I suggested before that for those people that believe marriage is a holy covenant between a man a woman and God, then have your own special marriage apart from the legal civil one that the law recognizes. There is a thing called covenant marriage already. It’s not tremendously popular but it’s an option for those who are sure they know what God thinks. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/99 "2015-07-01T00:19:53Z")
I’m not at all sympathetic to the bigots, but I’m okay with letting them quietly transfer to another position if they would prefer. It’s often relatively easy to shift government workers around. There is no way they could be in that role and choose not to serve certain people, however. They are public servants, their salaries are paid out of tax dollars, and their job is to implement the laws and policies of this country. If they don’t want to do that, there are lots of industries out there that they can get in to. Nobody makes you become a bureaucrat. I’m not even barely convinced this is actually a religious stance. Civil marriage has jack to do with religion. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/100 "2015-07-01T01:13:50Z")
If someone’s job duties violate their most fundamental faith principles, they should ask to be reassigned to some other post and if that’s denied or not possible then be Believer enough to tell the boss “no thanks, I’m leaving”. Or else accept that God knows you are compelled by there being a mortgage to pay and kids to feed… if you believe in a forgiving God. They can’t just keep the spot on the payroll but then just refuse to perform their duties. If one feels unable to do a job without sinning and feels their God will accept no duress excuse, then, their clear choice is to leave that job. Oh, and if someone believes they are making some sort of righteous stand :rolleyes: , Passive Resistance/Civil Disobedience involves _submitting to the consequences_ of the disobedience/resistance. _ **NOT** _ getting a waiver to be able to do it and still get paid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=6)