# Religious liberty of public employee vs. same-sex marriage rights. How to reconcile? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876 "2015-06-30T16:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/101 "2015-07-01T17:17:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yes, they should quit. I can’t think of a single case where a worker was allowed to excuse himself from issuing licenses because she/he disagreed with them on religious principles, and this would be a damn bad place to start such a practice. Can you imagine a clerk saying “I can’t personally issue you a license because I deeply believe races shouldn’t mix.”? No, not today, not where I live. But I can imagine someone saying that 50 years ago not to far from where I live right now. And as long as the state can make reasonable accommodation for that religious belief you are mostly saying that we should punish people who have bigoted religious beliefs. If their religious beliefs cannot be accommodated without burdening their employer then their employer can (not must) fire them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/102 "2015-07-01T17:21:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does this not tell you that > > 1. It happened in the past-I’d like to think we are better than that now. What made us better is that we had a fair process that ultimately achieved the correct result. There will undoubtedly be jurisdictions that will permit people to continue to express their religious beliefs and as long as the marriage licenses get issued, why would you sue? There isn’t a lawsuit in the world that is going to enlighten a bigot, all you can do is insist that their bigotry does not impact your life. > [@](#): > > 1. The fact that they had to sue shows that it was a bad idea anyway. It merely slows down the process. And based on that you would circumvent the legal process? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/103 "2015-07-01T17:28:21Z")
Who cares about beliefs? Its about actions, not beliefs? They can going on hating, pouting and believing the couple is doomed – no one cares. We just care that they perform the duties required by their job, and if their beliefs won’t allow this, they need to get out of that job. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/104 "2015-07-01T17:29:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > We don’t make those accommodations any more. If anyone is suggesting this should be a permanent thing, that’s dumb. I don’t want to keep defending the bigots but we make reasonable accomodations for all sorts of religious beliefs, why draw the line here? If the licenses get issued and the employee is otherwise productive, what some people seem to be advocating is simply punishing religious bigots for being religious bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/105 "2015-07-01T17:31:03Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > As a public servant, can I simply claim as my civil right the ability to ignore laws enacted after I began my job so many years ago? Sure, I’m not a religious person, but it would seem to violate my civil rights to require that I be religious in order to ignore certain laws. > > Plus, my job would be much easier if I could simply decline to enforce complex new laws, and never have to read what the legislature or the courts have been doing recently. The accommodation has to be reasonable. Your religious liberty ion the work environment is not inviolable, your employer simply has to accede to reasonable accommodations. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/106 "2015-07-01T17:31:26Z")
Issuing marriage licenses is one of the core functions of a deputy clerk. You might as well say we should accommodate car salesmen who won’t sell cars to women because of a religious belief about whether women should be allowed to drive. In other words, this would not be a _reasonable_ accommodation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/107 "2015-07-01T17:32:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No, not today, not where I live. But I can imagine someone saying that 50 years ago not to far from where I live right now. And as long as the state can make reasonable accommodation for that religious belief you are mostly saying that we should punish people who have bigoted religious beliefs. > > If their religious beliefs cannot be accommodated without burdening their employer then their employer can (not must) fire them. I m not saying that we should punish people for having bigoted religious beliefs. I am saying that having bigoted religious beliefs are not an acceptable excuse for punishing _others_, and stopping them from doing so is not “punishing” them for their bigoted religious beliefs-which they are still allowed to have. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/108 "2015-07-01T17:34:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Keep in mind that people who are discriminated against can sue too…and might win. On what basis could a gay couple that receives a marriage license from an office where one of the employees does not issue marriage licenses to gay couples sue? As long as the licenses are being issued, on what basis do you sue? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/109 "2015-07-01T17:37:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m genuinely very sorry, but this still smacks of “Will no one think of the poor bigots?”. Bigots are comfortable in jobs where they can be bigots, so what jobs might you be transitioning them to? If you start transferring them to certain jobs where they don’t have public exposure, and the people already there find out that that’s where you send the bigots, be prepared for the shitstorm that follows. > BTW, if a gay couple stands in line to get their license and anything other then them getting their license issued to them happens, like them being told to wait until someone can be found that is willing to work with them, or being told that “for their convenience” could they please stand over in the special “gay” line off to the side, _they are being discriminated against._ Gays are not yet a protected class. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/110 "2015-07-01T17:40:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > On what basis could a gay couple that receives a marriage license from an office where one of the employees does not issue marriage licenses to gay couples sue? > > As long as the licenses are being issued, on what basis do you sue? If and when we get to that point (and we have in may places), then I agree with you. A ten-second delay while another clerk steps up to issue the license is not worth suing over. However, in other places we’re not there yet, and if people are walking out of the office without receiving a licence, then they have the right and are fully justified in suing. Note this is a completely separate issue from what if any disciplinary personnel action should be taken against employees who refuse to perform any part of their job. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/111 "2015-07-01T17:41:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Do the job you were hired to do or find a different job. That’s all there is to it. ^ This. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/112 "2015-07-01T17:41:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Gays are not yet a protected class. Which is the problem with Kennedy’s decision. He should have just said “intermediate scrutiny” and that would have solved all kinds of problems. Now we have to deal with each and every fucking situation (some pun intended). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/113 "2015-07-01T17:44:33Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Are there situations where the employee is protected when the scope of work changes? I’d be hard pressed to argue that this constitutes a scope change, but what do I know. Lets say that you are one of 5 state executioners and you (long with the other 4 executioners) are in charge of executing convicted criminals. Then one day the state legalizes euthanasia of terminally ill patients that are in a coma, but out of concerns of how the euthanasia is conducted, the state requires that all euthanasia must be conducted by the state (meaning you). You have a religious objection to executing terminally ill patients in comas that you do not have with convicted criminals. Can they fire you? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/114 "2015-07-01T17:46:19Z")
> [@Catamount](#): > > No, but upholding and following the law of the United States of America was. \*All \*the laws, not just the ones that they like. Hell, training the newbies wasn’t part of my job description when I got hired, but it’s what I do now. > > This needs to be engraved in marble and hung up in every county courthouse. The ruling was against the state not against every individual in America. individuals are still entitled to religious objections to the extent that the objections can be reasonably accommodated. Aren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/115 "2015-07-01T17:48:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The ruling was against the state not against every individual in America. individuals are still entitled to religious objections to the extent that the objections can be reasonably accommodated. Aren’t they? It’s a little more complicated than that since the clerks are representatives of the state. It’s not like they are clerks at a hat shop. ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/116 "2015-07-01T17:48:38Z")
Okay, I didn’t have time to read this entire thread, as I usually do, so I apologize if I am repeating what someone else has said. The answer is cut and dried. Issue the license, or find another line of work. The reason is simple. The issuance of a marriage license by a state authority has 0 relevance in the eyes of God or any church. The State saying that you can be married has 0 influence on weather a particular church or clergy member will perform the ceremony. I don’t understand why people don’t get it. Secular marriage is not the same as Christian matrimony. They are similar enough that ministers get to act in a religious and secular role in the same ceremony, but cannot be compelled to perform ceremonies that violate their religion. Secular JP’s and judges can be compelled, but they should already know that since they are not clergy, any ceremony they perform has no standing with any church. If you are a court clerk, do your secular job, and let the clergy members do their job. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/117 "2015-07-01T17:49:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Lets say that you are one of 5 state executioners and you (long with the other 4 executioners) are in charge of executing convicted criminals. Then one day the state legalizes euthanasia of terminally ill patients that are in a coma, but out of concerns of how the euthanasia is conducted, the state requires that all euthanasia must be conducted by the state (meaning you). You have a religious objection to executing terminally ill patients in comas that you do not have with convicted criminals. > > Can they fire you? Yes. Only Texas could possibly keep 5 executioners busy. If I were one of the 5, I would probably quit. assuming this applies to involuntary euthanasia and that neither the patient nor someone with their Medical Power of Attorney has requested this. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/118 "2015-07-01T17:52:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Lets say that you are one of 5 state executioners and you (long with the other 4 executioners) are in charge of executing convicted criminals. Then one day the state legalizes euthanasia of terminally ill patients that are in a coma, but out of concerns of how the euthanasia is conducted, the state requires that all euthanasia must be conducted by the state (meaning you). You have a religious objection to executing terminally ill patients in comas that you do not have with convicted criminals. > > Can they fire you? Dunno. That seems like more of a scope change than the marriage thing. That’s a better thought experiment than I was able to think up. I wouldn’t be shocked to see that example go either way. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/119 "2015-07-01T17:53:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just to flip this around, what if a state passes a law (or has its state supreme court rule) that it will move from _may-issue_ concealed-carry permits to _shall-issue_ CCPs. A state employee who previously used his discretion to not issue CCPs (because of deep-seated moral conviction) now is told that he must and he refuses. Should he lose his job? > > Sure. Transfer him to another department, maybe, but there’s no obligation to wait until he sorts out his feelings. As a gun rights advocate, I don’t give a shit that one of the clerks in the courthouse disapproves of my keeping or bearing of arms. As long as I can get my permit in a timely fashion, I don’t give a shit. If there is only one person that can issue the permits and they refuse to do so then I can sue the state and the state can deal with it however they like. They can either hire more people so that there is always someone there to process my application or they can fire the current clerk and hire a new one, I don’t care either way. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/120 "2015-07-01T17:55:33Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I wonder if Ol’ Roy is going to pay the legal fees of all the clerks who get tried for civil rights violations out of his own pocket? The clerks will not get sued, the state will. The clerks might get fired but they won’t get sued. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=7)