# Religious liberty of public employee vs. same-sex marriage rights. How to reconcile? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876 "2015-06-30T16:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/121 "2015-07-01T17:57:54Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > If someone’s job duties violate their most fundamental faith principles, they should ask to be reassigned to some other post and if that’s denied or not possible then be Believer enough to tell the boss “no thanks, I’m leaving”. Or else accept that God knows you are compelled by there being a mortgage to pay and kids to feed… if you believe in a forgiving God. > > They can’t just keep the spot on the payroll but then just refuse to perform their duties. If one feels unable to do a job without sinning and feels their God will accept no duress excuse, then, their clear choice is to leave that job. > Oh, and if someone believes they are making some sort of righteous stand :rolleyes: , Passive Resistance/Civil Disobedience involves _submitting to the consequences_ of the disobedience/resistance. _ **NOT** _ getting a waiver to be able to do it and still get paid. You realize that some marriages are heterosexual right? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/122 "2015-07-01T17:59:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The clerks will not get sued, the state will. The clerks might get fired but they won’t get sued. Are you sure the clerks get off scot-free legally if they break the law? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/123 "2015-07-01T18:00:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The clerks will not get sued, the state will. The clerks might get fired but they won’t get sued. It’s important to distinguish between [deputy] “clerks” (small C), and Clerks - the elected officials who direct the clerks. The latter can probably be sued in their individual capacities. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/124 "2015-07-01T18:01:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Issuing marriage licenses is one of the core functions of a deputy clerk. You might as well say we should accommodate car salesmen who won’t sell cars to women because of a religious belief about whether women should be allowed to drive. In other words, this would not be a _reasonable_ accommodation. And if that bigoted car salesman sold more cars than any other salesman on the car lot? As long as there are plenty of other car salesmen that would be happy to sell cars to women on the car lot, what is the harm? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/125 "2015-07-01T18:02:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I m not saying that we should punish people for having bigoted religious beliefs. > I am saying that having bigoted religious beliefs are not an acceptable excuse for punishing _others_, and stopping them from doing so is not “punishing” them for their bigoted religious beliefs-which they are still allowed to have. Maybe I’m not being clear. Firing or not firing the person is up to the state. Some states will only go as far as the courts force them to. As long as marriage licenses are being issued to gay couples in a timely manner, what does it matter that one of the clerks doesn’t issue them? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/126 "2015-07-01T18:04:28Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > If and when we get to that point (and we have in may places), then I agree with you. A ten-second delay while another clerk steps up to issue the license is not worth suing over. > > However, in other places we’re not there yet, and if people are walking out of the office without receiving a licence, then they have the right and are fully justified in suing. > > Note this is a completely separate issue from what if any disciplinary personnel action should be taken against employees who refuse to perform any part of their job. I think its mostly a human resources issue. Its not gay couple versus clerk with bigoted religious views. Its is clerk with bigoted religious views versus their employer. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/127 "2015-07-01T18:04:33Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Lets say that you are one of 5 state executioners and you (long with the other 4 executioners) are in charge of executing convicted criminals. Then one day the state legalizes euthanasia of terminally ill patients that are in a coma, but out of concerns of how the euthanasia is conducted, the state requires that all euthanasia must be conducted by the state (meaning you). You have a religious objection to executing terminally ill patients in comas that you do not have with convicted criminals. > > Can they fire you? Yes. Only Texas could possibly keep 5 executioners busy. If I were one of the 5, I would probably quit. assuming this applies to involuntary euthanasia and that neither the patient nor someone with their Medical Power of Attorney has requested this. I’ve re-thought this. I might try to keep my job and still refuse, based on the constitutionality of the state ordering agents of the state to go into private institutions and commit murder, which is the only way I can parse your scenario. I would also hope these institutions would not ALLOW agents of the state to come in to perform them. It seems a lot of executioners are not medical professionals, and I would expect there to be lots of issues about credentialing these people to come in and perform medical procedures. But if all those objections are put aside by the courts because the whole fucking country goes nuts at once, then yes the executioners can be fired. I would hope they would have the moral courage to quit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/128 "2015-07-01T18:04:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And if that bigoted car salesman sold more cars than any other salesman on the car lot? As long as there are plenty of other car salesmen that would be happy to sell cars to women on the car lot, what is the harm? If the employer _wants_ to accommodate a bigoted employee, that is of course its right. You seem to be arguing that it is _obligated_ to. It isn’t, particularly here where it may be opening itself up to liability (if, say, there is no other deputy clerk on duty and a same-sex couple faces a significant delay.) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/129 "2015-07-01T18:06:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s a little more complicated than that since the clerks are representatives of the state. It’s not like they are clerks at a hat shop. Well yes and no. The fact that any one clerk refuses to perform the required act is largely irrelevant as long as there are enough others so that the state can perform the required act. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/130 "2015-07-01T18:07:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And if that bigoted car salesman sold more cars than any other salesman on the car lot? As long as there are plenty of other car salesmen that would be happy to sell cars to women on the car lot, what is the harm? As long as there’s another water fountain across the street, or perfectly good seats in the back of the bus, what’s the harm? If your bigoted car salesman sold more cars than other salesman, what’s the incentive for the boss to discourage the other salesmen from trying his methods to get the same results, or from hiring more bigoted people to increase sales? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/131 "2015-07-01T18:07:54Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Yes. Only Texas could possibly keep 5 executioners busy. > > If I were one of the 5, I would probably quit. assuming this applies to involuntary euthanasia and that neither the patient nor someone with their Medical Power of Attorney has requested this. What if didn’t want to quit? Could they fire you? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/132 "2015-07-01T18:09:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What if didn’t want to quit? Could they fire you? I already answered this. Yes, assuming all the legal obstacles were removed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/133 "2015-07-01T18:10:35Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Dunno. That seems like more of a scope change than the marriage thing. That’s a better thought experiment than I was able to think up. > I wouldn’t be shocked to see that example go either way. I’m just saying that the firing of the clerk is up to their employer who is ultimately liable for making sure that the marriage licenses get issued. If all the clerks refuse then the state keeps getting sued and keeps losing and having to pay attorney fees for both sides (plus damages) until they fix the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/134 "2015-07-01T18:11:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well yes and no. The fact that any one clerk refuses to perform the required act is largely irrelevant as long as there are enough others so that the state can perform the required act. There are always more people out there willing to do the job, if the person currently occupying the position doesn’t feel up to it. I’ve never noticed a “bigotry” work exemption in any job I’ve ever worked in the last 35 years-Has anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/135 "2015-07-01T18:12:00Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I already answered this. Yes, assuming all the legal obstacles were removed. You hid your answer at the very beginning of the very first sentence in your post. I can’t be blamed for missing that. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/136 "2015-07-01T18:13:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There are always more people out there willing to do the job, if the person currently occupying the position doesn’t feel up to it. I’ve never noticed a “bigotry” work exemption in any job I’ve ever worked in the last 35 years-Has anyone else? Yeah, its called a religious exemption. You can’t ignore the religious part of the bigotry, if it was simply bigotry, you could fire them immediately. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/137 "2015-07-01T18:16:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There are always more people out there willing to do the job, if the person currently occupying the position doesn’t feel up to it. I’ve never noticed a “bigotry” work exemption in any job I’ve ever worked in the last 35 years-Has anyone else? I don’t see how our society is served well by calling everyone opposed to SSM a bigot. I may have thought it was correct at one time, but the more I see it being used, the less accurate, and the less useful, I think it is. Other than making the accuser feel better, what good does it do? People are rarely persuaded to change their minds by being called names. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/138 "2015-07-01T18:17:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s a little more complicated than that since the clerks are representatives of the state. It’s not like they are clerks at a hat shop. It’s considerably more complicated. Government employees already have some of their rights restricted. For instance, their rights to participate in partisan politics. Their speech is also curtailed. In the case of the military they give up pretty much all the rights they have beyond what’s spelled out in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/139 "2015-07-01T18:19:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t see how our society is served well by calling everyone opposed to SSM a bigot. I may have thought it was correct at one time, but the more I see it being used, the less accurate, and the less useful, I think it is. Other than making the accuser feel better, what good does it do? People are rarely persuaded to change their minds by being called names. Fine, call them obstructionists, or call them cute little puppies. Treat the behavior the same. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/140 "2015-07-01T18:19:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, its called a religious exemption. You can’t ignore the religious part of the bigotry, if it was simply bigotry, you could fire them immediately. Can you show me cases where clerks refused to issue licenses because they objected to some other religious aspect, such as mix-race, adultery, being married previously, having out-of-wedlock children etc., and said clerk was just allowed to do so? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=8)