# Religious liberty of public employee vs. same-sex marriage rights. How to reconcile? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876 "2015-06-30T16:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/161 "2015-07-01T21:11:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > _Post hoc, ergo propter hoc._ So’s your old man! > [@](#): > > It would be interesting to see Gallup or Pew come up with the number of people who actually changed their opinion in order to avoid an accusation of bigotry _vs_ the number of people whose views were changed by the simple phenomenon of encountering an increasing number of gay people who plead for better treatment. I doubt such a poll would be possible; at least, not one with meaningful results. I don’t think very many people’s opinions on this subject were informed by just one thing, as opposed to a variety of ideas, arguments, and observations. And I’m skeptical that it would be possible to isolate various individual ideas &c. and weight them against each other in terms of effectiveness. Lastly, such a poll would necessarily rely on respondents being able to accurately remember and report their evolving internal states several years after the fact, and I don’t think that’s something humans in general are very good at. > [@](#): > > (Or the simple increase in the number of people–especially those under 30–who have been more exposed to less hostile representations of homosexuality in various media.) Well, that’s interesting. You apparently accept the idea that negative representations of homosexuals in the media and in the culture at large could inspire people to be more homophobic. But you reject the idea that negative representations of homo_phobes_ in the media and the culture at large could inspire people to be _less_ homophobic. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/162 "2015-07-01T21:16:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Depends. > Telling a clerk to issue a license. Not a religious issue. > Telling a Christian to work on a Sunday or a Jew to work on a Saturday, no longer a religious issue. > Telling a Muslim taxi driver to accept a fare carrying liquor is not a religious issue from my perspective, but several cabbies, a couple of years back, disagreed. > Telling a doctor to perform an abortion or to perform an execution wanders very much into the overlap of religion and employment. A person’s religion certainly may impinge on their ability to do a particular job. It is incumbent on that person to not take those jobs. If a doctor does not want to perform abortions they should not take a job where they may have to perform an abortion. There are plenty of doctors who will. If you hire an Amish person to do data entry and then they tell you they can’t use the computer because it violates their sincerely held religious beliefs I think you have more than enough justification to fire them without running afoul of encroaching on their religious freedoms. I would be fine with this county clerk not giving marriage license to same sex couples IF they made accommodation and got someone else to do it for them. That does not seem to be the case here. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/163 "2015-07-01T21:17:59Z")
I would have been fairly described as a homophobe at the time I joined the SDMB, though I didn’t have a problem being around gay people per se. I probably would have supported gay marriage, but in an abstract “why not?” kind of way, rather than being a vocal proponent. I don’t know what changed my view, but I do know it was a gradual process and not some “ah hah!” _American History X_-type event. I suspect the biggest factor was years and years of debate on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/164 "2015-07-01T21:26:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Lets say that you are one of 5 state executioners and you (long with the other 4 executioners) are in charge of executing convicted criminals. Then one day the state legalizes euthanasia of terminally ill patients that are in a coma, but out of concerns of how the euthanasia is conducted, the state requires that all euthanasia must be conducted by the state (meaning you). You have a religious objection to executing terminally ill patients in comas that you do not have with convicted criminals. > > Can they fire you? If you refuse to do what is required by your job, sure. If the job description changes you have two choices: 1. Change in accordance with the new rules and do your job 2. Look for a new job This is the case for every other job in the world, why not that of a public employee? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/165 "2015-07-01T21:28:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I would have been fairly described as a homophobe at the time I joined the SDMB, though I didn’t have a problem being around gay people per se. I probably would have supported gay marriage, but in an abstract “why not?” kind of way, rather than being a vocal proponent. > > I don’t know what changed my view, but I do know it was a gradual process and not some “ah hah!” _American History X_-type event. I suspect the biggest factor was years and years of debate on the SDMB. Transgender people and cross dresses creep me out. I would hope that if i got to know some of them, to have exposure and get to know them, that my reaction would change. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/166 "2015-07-01T21:48:20Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If you refuse to do what is required by your job, sure. > > If the job description changes you have two choices: > > 1. Change in accordance with the new rules and do your job > 2. Look for a new job > > This is the case for every other job in the world, why not that of a public employee? No, it’a not the case for ever job in the world. Unless, of course, you have a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/167 "2015-07-01T21:53:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They’ve been given the message six ways from Sunday for decades now. What the fuck more do you want us to do, and how much more time do you want us to waste trying to do it? > > It changed all the way back in 1973-that’s before a large percentage of the bigots were born, so they don’t have that excuse. > > We know that they are bigots, and we know that it would be useful if they would either do the job they were hired to do, or quit and let someone else who needs the job fill the position. > > Got any more excuses? What you call an excuse, I call a reason. I don’t have an answer for how much longer we need to wait. It really doesn’t matter because I don’t believe that RIGHT NOW it’s useful to call everyone who opposes SSM a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/168 "2015-07-01T21:57:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What you call an excuse, I call a reason. I don’t have an answer for how much longer we need to wait. It really doesn’t matter because I don’t believe that RIGHT NOW it’s useful to call everyone who opposes SSM a bigot. I’ve been calling them bigots for years. I see no reason to change now. ---
**Author:** ![Verily](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e9a140/32.png) [@Verily](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Verily)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/169 "2015-07-01T22:00:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t want to keep defending the bigots but we make reasonable accomodations for all sorts of religious beliefs, why draw the line here? If the licenses get issued and the employee is otherwise productive, what some people seem to be advocating is simply punishing religious bigots for being religious bigots. I don’t believe anyone has advocated that. If the religious bigot does the job required of him, issuing a marriage license to the gay couple in line and keeping his hateful views to himself, I don’t believe anyone in this thread is saying he should be fired for having those views when he goes home and rants to his wife about how he had to process a pair of fuckin’ queers today. He’s as free to feel that way, and to rant to his wife about it, as we are to call him a bigot for doing so. Holding hateful views and expressing them privately on your own personal time is not grounds for termination. But, and several of us have said this in several different ways now, if he refuses to process them on the grounds that he personally doesn’t approve of their marriage, then he’s refusing to fulfill his job duties. He can, and should, get in trouble for that, professionally. And if he doesn’t heed the reprimand and _do his job_, then he can, and should, lose that job. Not because he’s a bigot. Because he’s refusing to do his job. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/170 "2015-07-01T22:04:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What you call an excuse, I call a reason. I don’t have an answer for how much longer we need to wait. It really doesn’t matter because I don’t believe that RIGHT NOW it’s useful to call everyone who opposes SSM a bigot. Thanks, **John**. We’ll be sure to file that with all the other “helpful” advice we’ve gotten from straight people about how we’re not fighting for our rights in the correct manner. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/171 "2015-07-01T22:19:02Z")
I wonder if some states might revise procedures for issuing marriage licenses so as to eliminate face-to-face contact and thus remove the issue? Make it a by-mail application, or perhaps all online. By centralizing the processing in a single state office then no couple, same-sex or opposite-sex, would have any idea who issued the license. Less liability for the state that way. Aside from an alteration to procedures like that, I am sure legal cases will battle out much like pharmacist refusals. The [Appeals Court in Illinois](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-09-22/news/ct-met-emergency-contraceptives-20120922_1_emergency-contraceptives-conscience-act-pharmacists) in 2012, for example, upheld the right of pharmacists not to fill scripts for emergency contraception on religious grounds. That was private business and not a public government position so perhaps that will make a difference. A federal court in Washington state ruled in favor of the pharmacists in Stormans v. Wiesman on the same pharmacist refusal issue. The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (federal court) has heard oral argument of the state’s appeal. I can’t find a ruling on that appeal yet. If the opinion diverges from the Illinois court then perhaps SCOTUS will take that up? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/172 "2015-07-01T22:19:03Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If you refuse to do what is required by your job, sure. > > If the job description changes you have two choices: > > 1. Change in accordance with the new rules and do your job > 2. Look for a new job > > This is the case for every other job in the world, why not that of a public employee? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, it’a not the case for ever job in the world. Unless, of course, you have a cite for that? How about you give a cite for a job that is NOT like that? Unless you’re the owner that’s how it is. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/173 "2015-07-01T22:30:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t see how our society is served well by calling everyone opposed to SSM a bigot. I may have thought it was correct at one time, but the more I see it being used, the less accurate, and the less useful, I think it is. Other than making the accuser feel better, what good does it do? People are rarely persuaded to change their minds by being called names. I think the biggest impact it has is on the next generation. Most of us grew up with at least a few racists in the older generations in our family. But most of us grew up understanding that those were outdated, socially unacceptable, and offensive views. Old grandpa Joe may be as racist or homophobic as he wants, but having clear words to describe these views ensures that little Joe and Susie grow up rolling their eyes when he spews hate rather than learning to perpetuate it. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/174 "2015-07-01T22:34:55Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > How about you give a cite for a job that is NOT like that? > > Unless you’re the owner that’s how it is. Ever read a union contract? Employers dealing with a labor contract may not be able to change duties. [Cite](http://work.chron.com/can-employer-change-job-description-19200.html) (See section on labor unions) When my (non-union) public service job added substantial duties they had to have me sign a new contract. Had I chosen not to I still had an existing contract and my employer was bound by its terms. This was made plain. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/175 "2015-07-01T22:39:59Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I think the biggest impact it has is on the next generation. Most of us grew up with at least a few racists in the older generations in our family. But most of us grew up understanding that those were outdated, socially unacceptable, and offensive views. Old grandpa Joe may be as racist or homophobic as he wants, but having clear words to describe these views ensures that little Joe and Susie grow up rolling their eyes when he spews hate rather than learning to perpetuate it. It’s one thing to call a relative, whom you know, a bigot. in that case, you have enough evidence to make a decent judgement. But in the case of this thread, we have no idea who the people are who are being called bigots. That’s way I specifically said “when speaking of broad categories or people we don’t actually know” I don’t think it useful to throw the b-word around. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/176 "2015-07-01T22:41:16Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You realize that some marriages are heterosexual right? And how does that affect anything I wrote in my post? Some of the duties the person’s asked to perform s/he has no problem with, others s/he does. If he can’t bear the sinfulness of the latter, s/he can request reassignment or live by their faith and move on. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/177 "2015-07-01T22:46:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So’s your old man! Nope. Not a fallacy in which my old man engaged. > [@Miller](#): > > Well, that’s interesting. You apparently accept the idea that negative representations of homosexuals in the media and in the culture at large could inspire people to be more homophobic. But you reject the idea that negative representations of homo_phobes_ in the media and the culture at large could inspire people to be _less_ homophobic. Nope. You are inventing arguments that I have not made. I note that images such as those presented in Midnight Cowboy have given way to images such as Jodie Dallas on Soap and later to images such as _La Cage aux Folles_ and Will and Grace, punctuated by revelations, beginning with Rock Hudson, that a number of popular personalities were, themselves, gay. Against that, the notion that a number of people on the internet expressing anger against anti-gay bigotry was a serious force to change minds seems odd. (I do not ever recall hearing a public figure publicly condemning anti-gay attitudes as bigotry, although I do not claim it never happened. _And speeches at gay rallies to which the majority of people never paid attention really don’t count._) Had there been a prolonged public effort at shaming people away from homophobia, it _might_ have worked. However, since that does not appear to have actually occurred, we don’t know if it would have. I have not claimed that shaming could not work; I simply note that using a different approach seems to have actually been a successful strategy. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/178 "2015-07-01T22:48:56Z")
> [@Catamount](#): > > I’ve been calling them bigots for years. I see no reason to change now. Indeed. It would be awfully weird to go from saying they are bigots to saying “Oh, well, maybe they just need more time, the poor dears.” ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/179 "2015-07-01T22:51:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Had there been a prolonged public effort at shaming people away from homophobia, it _might_ have worked. However, since that does not appear to have actually occurred, we don’t know if it would have. I have not claimed that shaming could not work; I simply note that using a different approach seems to have actually been a successful strategy. What??? People have been trying to reason with them for 20 or 30 years, or more. Your “don’t shame them” them position only works if people had not tried reasoning with them first. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876/180 "2015-07-01T22:52:14Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Indeed. It would be awfully weird to go from saying they are bigots to saying “Oh, well, maybe they just need more time, the poor dears.” Alternatively, we could just not call people names at all. We’re not required by law to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-liberty-of-public-employee-vs-same-sex-marriage-rights-how-to-reconcile/723876.md?page=10)