# Religious proselytizers. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592 "2014-10-06T22:07:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/21 "2014-10-07T09:42:09Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > _Are you for real?_ The best explanation for anything at all existing lies within physics - at this point, the models we have seem to indicate that if a universe did not exist, then one would pop into existence due to the way reality is inherently structured. No, [seriously](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-K85WW4fNg). Correction: the point here is not “if one didn’t exist, one would start to exist”, it’s that “it is impossible for one not to exist”. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/22 "2014-10-07T12:35:48Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > THERE ARE 5 BILLION PEOPLE IN THE WORLD?! When I said the continued existence of Carrot Top was a global extinction threat they called me mad. MAD ! Well who’s mad now ?! ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/23 "2014-10-07T13:37:17Z")
> [@bizerta](#): > > \>\>\> If their belief system (be it Mormon, Jehovah, Buddah, Muslim, or Angelina Jolie) is the ONE TRUE belief system, why don’t people flock to it on their own? Why do they need to be “converted”? What is the Bible-beaters logic on that? I mean, if I’m too stupid to convert to Mormonism, why does the average Mormon waste two years of Gods life to teach those of us that don’t see the light? Plus, why wouldn’t an omnipotent benevolent god simply have us born with the knowledge of its existence and what it wants from us? Why would it choose the imperfect and unreliable communication medium of old books and crackpots at football games? Being born with this knowledge wouldn’t affect free will, since people who are 100 percent sure of their religions still commit sin. The god these folks believe in is playing an unnecessary and cruel game with people’s souls. It’s either a bastard, a dumbass, or mythical. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/24 "2014-10-07T15:39:36Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > THERE ARE 5 BILLION PEOPLE IN THE WORLD?! It’s the ebola, dontcha know. Anyway, proselytizing has the benefit of cult reinforcement even if it fails. If the believer encounters scorn and ridicule…why, that just proves the world is evil and misguided, but the believer is safe because he or she is right with the One True Faith or whatever. I suppose the reaction they might dislike the most is smile-and-nod indifference. “Yeah, Christ is lord, uh-huh, sure…” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/25 "2014-10-07T16:44:31Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > THERE ARE 5 BILLION PEOPLE IN THE WORLD?! > > I’m not looking forward to reading the paper tonight. Mmmm - Soylent Green. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/26 "2014-10-07T17:40:44Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > _Are you for real?_ The best explanation for anything at all existing lies within physics - at this point, the models we have seem to indicate that if a universe did not exist, then one would pop into existence due to the way reality is inherently structured. No, [seriously](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-K85WW4fNg). Not only that, but “God” is only an explanation for the universe in the same way “Magic” is an explanation - it has no explanatory power; it is explaining one mystery with another mystery. This is Kindergarten Theology. We haven’t even established that God _is_ an explanation for the universe!It’s a big fat argument from ignorance. No, just because we have no other alternative _does not immediately validate your completely unjustified answer whose existence we have not even established_. You still need to provide evidence that your answer is _valid_. And Craig does no such thing. And then he goes on to make exactly the same mistake 3 or 4 times in the article, at which point I stopped reading. The whole debate about how religious people don’t believe in or understand science is kind of a sideshow. Creationism and biblical literalism are very much a minority point of view. The overwhelming majority of Christians (I won’t presume to speak for other faiths) have no issue whatsoever with science. There are plenty of ideas being thrown around that are worth discussing and debating, but the religion vs. science debate is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/27 "2014-10-09T05:30:06Z")
Hey, I was one of those guys riding around town on the bicycles, wearing a white shirt and tie; accosting people on the street and knocking on their doors. Why did I do it? (I’m going to use the present tense and include me, although I’m no longer Mormon because it reflects how I felt at the time and how the typical Mormon feels now). Basically it’s that Mormons are really, really bad at math. Not as bad as the OP, but bad enough. We believe that we are making progress, and that we are "the Fastest Growing Religion[sup]TM[/sup] and that universal acceptance of the Church (capitalized, of course) is just around the corner. It winds up that we aren’t doing all that hot after all. The church claims 15 million members, but probably has 3.5 million to 4.5 million active members. That’s less than 0.07% of the world’s population. (More if you use the OP’s figures.) The leaders have never explained how we are going to get from the 0.07% to “lots,” but it made sense at the time. Utah is the scam capital of the country as well as a hotbed of MLM schemes, and I believe it’s partly because of this unquestioned faith in the impossible. There is an incredible pressure put on the guys to go on missions, some of the most effective pressure is that teenage girls are heavily indoctrinated into insisting on only dating and marrying RMs (returned missionaries). As we put in our applications, one friend told me he hoped to go someplace exotic, like Japan, because these places were more popular with the girls. The church puts so much pressure on the guys because statistically, men who go on their missions are much more likely to remain active members than those who don’t go. The children are made to sing songs about becoming missionaries when they grow up. The boys going are showcased in the church meeting before they go and when they return. Families talk about their children one missions with pride, as if they had been accepted into Harvard or Yale. It becomes very difficult for boys from active member families to not go, although that’s changing. Other than this, why do the boys go? Why do they have young men go off to war? Because older people aren’t as stupid. Then once you’re out there inertia kicks in and you do what you are supposed to. There’s a minority of the missionaries who are really zealous, another minority which don’t give a shit and the rest, like I was, who are in between. I didn’t complain too much with my zealous companion, didn’t object at all with a companion who just wanted to kill time and sort of worked at it the rest of the time. The number of baptisms per missionary continues to drop, outside of Africa. Reading missionary blogs, it looks like most of the people they work with are the 9-year-old kids from part-member families and immigrants, and even then most will be lucky to get a few baptisms a year. What’s interesting is that the stigma of going home early is lessening and although there aren’t any official statistics released, some people estimate that up to 10% of the missionaries go home early, many for depression or anxiety. Outside of the Utah, Southern Idaho and northern Arizona base, and Africa, there is little real growth in active members. Compared to Jehovah Witnesses, most of the non-missonary members really don’t [del]proselytize[/del] annoy their neighbors as much. Lately, the leadership has called on the members to flood the Internet with their love. However, most Mormons don’t have non-member friends, so it’s mostly an act of masturbation. As with any other zealots, all acts are seen as signs from god. Wake up and can’t find your keys? God was helping you from getting into an accident. Someone joins the cult? God showed them the way. Someone didn’t? Satan hardened their hearts. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/28 "2014-10-09T06:19:39Z")
There are different answers to those questions differ even across sects of Christianity. Other religions have their own answers. “Fate of the unlearned” is a good search to start running a specific answer to ground. You’ll likely get multiple answers from people to be of the same faith/denomination. Even when their faith has a clear answer many seem to think differently or just be ignorant of what their supposed faith actually says. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/29 "2014-10-09T06:29:40Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > The whole debate about how religious people don’t believe in or understand science is kind of a sideshow. > > Creationism and biblical literalism are very much a minority point of view. The overwhelming majority of Christians (I won’t presume to speak for other faiths) have no issue whatsoever with science. > > There are plenty of ideas being thrown around that are worth discussing and debating, but the religion vs. science debate is pointless. Amen, not all religious people are fundamental literalists. They are a small and noisy part of the landscape at best when looked at worldwide, in the USA it seems you have more than your fare share though. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/30 "2014-10-09T06:52:35Z")
The bible tells them to ‘preach the gospel’, so your questions don’t matter to them. They are simply following that directive. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/31 "2014-10-09T18:52:13Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > The whole debate about how religious people don’t believe in or understand science is kind of a sideshow. > > Creationism and biblical literalism are very much a minority point of view. The overwhelming majority of Christians (I won’t presume to speak for other faiths) have no issue whatsoever with science. > > There are plenty of ideas being thrown around that are worth discussing and debating, but the religion vs. science debate is pointless. Do we have to drag out [poll numbers](http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/newsweek-poll-belief-in-special-creation-by-college-graduates-at-34/) over and over again? from 2007, but I don’t see any reason to think it is better today > [@](#): > > Nine in 10 (91 percent) of American adults say they believe in God and almost as many (87 percent) say they identify with a specific religion. …Nearly half (48 percent) of the public rejects the scientific [sic] theory of evolution; one-third (34 percent) of college graduates say they accept the Biblical account of creation as fact. Seventy-three percent of Evangelical Protestants say they believe that God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years; 39 percent of non-Evangelical Protestants and 41 percent of Catholics agree with that view. And Evangelical Protestants are the biggest affiliation [Cite](http://religions.pewforum.org/affiliations) And 28% of Americans are literalists. [Cite](http://www.gallup.com/poll/170834/three-four-bible-word-god.aspx) I’m sure that the majority of people in your liberal church have no problem with science. But you can’t scale that to the entire country. Did you watch the 2012 Republican presidential debates? Where a majority (vast majority) of candidates rejected evolution? I don’t know if that was because they were stupid and ignorant or because they were appealing to the base, but either choice is scary. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/32 "2014-10-09T20:44:36Z")
> [@Pinmin](#): > > These are more complicated questions to answer than a quick sound bite because they require more I depth understanding of Christian beliefs. The answers below are from that perspective. > > 1. Christians believe that our natural nature is one turned away from God. This is called a sin nature that has been part of the human experience since Adam and Eve. Essentially the Bible says that we are selfish people and naturally don’t want to believe. > 2. a common misconception, but wrong. Hell is a place of punishment for wrongdoing. Everyone who has done wrong (everyone in Christian beliefs) deserves to go to Hell. Just like everyone who has committed a serious crime deserves to go to prison. Jesus provides a reprieve from this deserved punishment. There are many ways to answer this > A) God doesn’t have to offer everyone this reprieve. Let’s say Oprah decides to pay off all debts of one lucky person. Does that mean it’s not fair that she didn’t pay off my debts? I accrued those debts and > B) God is all knowing, all powerful, etc. Some say that he knows who will truly believe and they will hear some way from someone. Or they are born at a time and place where they will hear. Are you aware that many atheists understand all of this, but just think it’s crazy? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/33 "2014-10-09T21:34:51Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Are you aware that many atheists understand all of this, but just think it’s crazy? You don’t even have to be an atheist. Back when I believed in God, and was Jewish, this stuff was just as nuts. The fact that God waited 4,000 years if you are a YEC and a million years if you are sane is bad enough. The fact that he supposedly hid this vital information in obscure interpretations of obscure bible passages is even worse. The Kosher laws are not set forth in obscure imagery and parables - they are explicitly stated. Why Christians think God couldn’t do that about salvation is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![bizerta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@bizerta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizerta)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/34 "2014-10-09T22:55:54Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > … Basically it’s that Mormons are really, really bad at math. Not as bad as the OP, but bad enough. … OP here. First, I received a 792 SAT score in math and was a math major in college. Secondly, that is not relevant as I mentioned nothing mathematical in my original post. And since you have some knowledge … I watched a PBS miniseries on Mormons back in 2007. I remember the year because it just happened to occur on the 150th anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I love the way religious zealots (be it Mormon, or the Spanish Inquisition, or the current ISIS crisis, or Michael Corleone), can justify murdering non believers, and then they still have complete confidence that God will welcome them in the afterlife. So, how do Mormons justify the Mountain Meadows Massacre? I’m sure they have a prepared text on the subject, if asked. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/35 "2014-10-10T02:14:53Z")
> [@bizerta](#): > > OP here. First, I received a 792 SAT score in math and was a math major in college. Secondly, that is not relevant as I mentioned nothing mathematical in my original post. Not mathematical, just numerical. What’s the human population of Earth again? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/36 "2014-10-10T04:12:59Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Not mathematical, just numerical. What’s the human population of Earth again? Memorizing the population of the world is mathematical? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/37 "2014-10-10T09:34:47Z")
oh goodie. Another god-thread. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Are you aware that many atheists understand all of this, but just think it’s crazy? Are you aware that many physicist understand a lot about how the Universe works, but still think it’s crazy? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/38 "2014-10-10T09:37:34Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > oh goodie. Another god-thread. > > Are you aware that many physicist understand a lot about how the Universe works, but still think it’s crazy? not as crazy as the idea of “original sin” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/39 "2014-10-10T09:46:26Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > THERE ARE 5 BILLION PEOPLE IN THE WORLD?! > > I’m not looking forward to reading the paper tonight. Well, there you go. We missed the Rapture. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592/40 "2014-10-10T09:47:17Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > not as crazy as the idea of “original sin” I can understand that you haven’t studied quantum physics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizers/700592.md?page=3)