# Religious proselytizing and business: oil and water? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322 "2004-01-02T17:28:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/21 "2004-01-02T19:17:19Z")
MEBuckner, I completely agree, but first of all: some of them indeed inform foreigners about this since you need a visa and thus are informed by the personel of the diplomatic post. And when inside the country you are informed locally about certain prohibitions when there is need to. Next: People who plan to go to these countries are all too much aware of this. People who aren’t aware of it must be living on the moon all their lives. Standup, Not at all. On the other thread was mentioned some juwelry maker who puts such religious things hidden on the juwels they fabricate. If you buy this, you don’t eat it I suppose and most probably you take it with you when you leave the country. And by the way: If I buy something and take it home and on the package which I didn’t open anymore after buying the product is such a hidden message, do you claim that I must know that? How can I know that? I am discussing the right of the customor to be spared of (and please read now what I write, which you didn’t do so far it seems) **HIDDEN** and unwanted and unrelated to the product messages on that product or its package without giving notice of this in any way to the custumor. I do not buy things expecting hidden proselytizing not related to the product coming unwanted and secretly with it. Now try to explain to me how you defend the assertion that clients must follow some strange sort of obligation that commands them to expect at all times such hidden messages to be pushed onto them? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/22 "2004-01-02T19:22:49Z")
I think people don’t get what I try to bring across. I try to explain 1. If I can recognize an item as having a relation with some religion and buy it, I could be asked to expect something else connected with that religion on it or coming with it. 2. If I can not recognize a product as having any relation with any relgion, I can not expect anything related to this religion coming with it. So no, if such hidden messages come with that product, that can not be my “personal choice” or my “responsibility” at all. What is not clear about this? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/23 "2004-01-02T19:29:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*And then you wonder why such arrogant lunatics are not wanted in so many natikons? \*\* The arrogant lunatics are the monsters who would kill you and yours for having quotes from the “wrong” religion (as if any of them were right, ha!) on your person upon entering their country. It is simply a fact that CIVILIZED NATIONS DO NOT ALLOW THIS. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/24 "2004-01-02T19:32:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* > \*\*I would _rather_ businesses put their religious/political affiliations right upfront on their products! That way, I know whom I’m supporting with my money and can make up my mind whether or not to patronize them. \*\* Hear hear. I wish I could get back every dollar I ever spent at Chic-fil-a before I learned what a horrible, backward, hateful company it is. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/25 "2004-01-02T19:33:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > **I have the right to go where I need and want to go without > having anything pushed onto me that could bring me in danger because I don’t even know it is pushed onto me.** Ummm… says who? If you go into a person’s store, you are the guest, you are in his/her store, and his/her worldview is the one that will be expressed, not yours. I wonder, though, if America were to pass a law executing anyone who brings a Quran in from another country, would you be as quick to condemn the stores in your country for selling Qurans? After all, those could get you killed… ---
**Author:** ![Standup\_Karmic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@Standup\_Karmic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Standup_Karmic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/26 "2004-01-02T19:33:46Z")
**Aldebaran** , I’m happy to try to explain my defence of those companies. Nowhere within North America, where you may purchase such goods, will you get murdered for the possession of a bag with “John 3:16” written on the bottom. If that message is “hidden” (see? I read it), then it is likely not to even concern those who take moral offence to the material, as they never see it. Should you happen to find that message, and take offence from it, you may then choose to return the item and get your money back, or choose never to shop at that store again. What makes you believe that your alleged right to buy any product that does not reflect the personal religious beliefs of a company’s owner outweighs that owner’s right to display his or her beliefs? I have shown that, by either returning the item or refusing to shop there anymore, you can make your viewpoint known. At worst, you will have the inconvience of having to returnt he item. Hardly a breach of your fundamental human rights. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/27 "2004-01-02T19:36:29Z")
Spectrum, I very much prefer not to go into detail about what “civilised” nations do since that is not the debate here. And I also don’t want to start a debate about the extreme lunatical arrogance of those nations (and many of their citizens) to claim that they know what “must” be “good” for other nations, since that is also not the debate here. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/28 "2004-01-02T19:39:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*2. If I can not recognize a product as having any relation with any relgion, I can not expect anything related to this religion coming with it. \*\* Welcome to the West, where the phenomenon of casual religiosity is widespread and the aphorism “buyer beware” is more than just a hollow truism. > [@](#): > > So no, if such hidden messages come with that product, that can not be my “personal choice” or my “responsibility” at all. If you live in a barbaric, backward country, and buy goods in a free and liberal country, you cannot expect that the goods you purchased will meet the lower standards for human rights in your homeland, and it is incumbent upon you to verify the legality of said items. That’s simply the way it is, and the way it will always be. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/29 "2004-01-02T19:42:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*Spectrum, > > I very much prefer not to go into detail about what “civilised” nations do since that is not the debate here. \*\* I’m sorry, but there is no standard by which a nation which kills people for carrying on their persons messages of the “wrong” religion can be considered civilized. Do you support your government’s policy of murdering innocent people caught with Bible quotes on their persons? ---
**Author:** ![Standup\_Karmic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@Standup\_Karmic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Standup_Karmic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/30 "2004-01-02T19:51:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*And I also don’t want to start a debate about the extreme lunatical arrogance of those nations \*\* If you are being honest about not wanting to debate these things, then don’t bring that kind of rhetoric into play. Backhanded insults are not representative of the desire to avoid debate. You also have inferred that the inclusion of such messages is somehow a method of religious imperialism. Kindly explain how products offered by American companies for purchase in America is proselytizing to other countries? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/31 "2004-01-02T19:55:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Standup Karmic \* > What makes you believe that your alleged right to buy any product that does not reflect the personal religious beliefs of a company’s owner outweighs that owner’s right to display his or her beliefs? The fact that the producer brings the product on the marked, unmarked with his religious beliefs. So he makes me trust the product not to have any relation to his beliefs and not to have any sign of that belief on it or coming with it. Thus it is an act of misleading the custumor if he puts anything related to his beliefs hidden on that product or its package. > [@](#): > > I have shown that, by either returning the item or refusing to shop there anymore, you can make your viewpoint known. At worst, you will have the inconvience of having to returnt he item. Hardly a breach of your fundamental human rights. I disagree. If I buy something I have the right to expect not to be in any need to discuss the product in question, its package or whatever that is coming with it unexpected, invisible, unwanted. It is my right to keep any proselytizing material and anyone who tries to proselytize on me as far away from my personal life as I want. Any producer or retailer who breaks my confidence and trust, which he builded because I can’t see any connection between his products and his religion, yet adds unwanted, unexpected and hidden proselytizing aspects to it, thus enters unwanted, uninvited and hidden my private life with his arrogant proselytizing. He abuses for this my confidence and trust that he himself builded with hiding his intentions. And not only that. Is is also a transgression of my right on privacy, my right to keep everything related to his religion far from me, and my right - since as I have paid the price for the product - to enjoy or use it the way I was misled to believe I could. Not to mention all the rest I gave example of. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/32 "2004-01-02T19:59:24Z")
standup, Sorry? Where do I refer to “religious imperialism”? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/33 "2004-01-02T20:02:39Z")
Spectrum, Regarding your quesiton: My country doesn’t “kill” people for entering with proselytizing material. Yet there are nations and places I visit where such can cause indeed serious problems. I have a question in return: Do you support the death penalty? Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Standup\_Karmic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@Standup\_Karmic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Standup_Karmic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/34 "2004-01-02T20:19:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > **They want to proselytize at all costs. > And then you wonder why such arrogant lunatics are not wanted in so many natikons? They stand for nothing to reach their goald. That is why.** > [@](#): > > **And I also don’t want to start a debate about the extreme lunatical arrogance of those nations (and many of their citizens) to claim that they know what “must” be “good” for other nations, since that is also not the debate here.** In these earlier posts, you make a connection between inclusion of religious propoganda on products and the alleged attempt to push these products on other nations. In the context of this discussion, you have inferred that such proselytizing is indeed religious imperialism. I’m afraid I must also disagree that you have a _right_ to keep proselytizing material as far away from you as possible. That may be true in your country, but not here. You may certainly keep yourself away from _it_, but not vice versa. In the city in which I live, there is a Christian church of some kind in an old building that has on the outside and visible to all who pass, in huge black letters, “Jesus Saves”. It is their property and provided it is not illegal, they may display whatever they wish. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/35 "2004-01-02T20:21:20Z")
Getting back to the OP, I have a few questions … - Should there be a difference between a common carrier (Alaska Airlines in this case) with monopoly status along some of its routes, as opposed to another common carrier where a traveller can choose to fly it or another airline? If so, how would this not be a double standard? - What about a regulated ultility? “Thank you for dialing AT&T. All of our operators are busy. In order to pass the time until the next operator is available, here are some soothing words from the Bible …” - What if that regulated utility is the _only_ utility for a specific area, say an electrical utility or a cable company? In the case of the latter, one could choose not to have cable. However, in the case of the former, must one go without electricity just to not be subjected to their religious bent? ---
**Author:** ![Standup\_Karmic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@Standup\_Karmic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Standup_Karmic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/36 "2004-01-02T20:38:43Z")
**Duckster** , my take is that unless it is a legally granted monopoly (back in the olden days, by law there was only one possible phone company that offered service in my area - that market has since been opened to competition), they are free to do as they wish. I doubt that Alaska Airlines has been granted any such monopoly, and if they have little competition, it is simply a matter of market forces. As such, they can have religious placards and even have a stewardess say “in the unlikely event of a water landing, fear not, as those of virtue within God’s eyes will be saved, though the rest of you heathens best hold tight to the personal flotation device located beneath your seat”. OTOH, a legally-prescribed monopoly would have to follow rules set out by the granting authority. That authority would then have the right to require that the company not proselytize. I am with **MEBuckner** on questioning why any particular business would choose to possibly alienate a great number of its potential customers. However, that choice is theirs. If it is closely held, they can do as they wish, but there could certainly be a rift among shareholders if a widely held company were to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/37 "2004-01-02T20:40:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Standup Karmic \* > In these earlier posts, you make a connection between inclusion of religious propoganda on products and the alleged attempt to push these products on other nations. In the context of this discussion, you have inferred that such proselytizing is indeed religious imperialism. No, I certainly did not. I said that I don’t want such products to be pushed on me. And your example of that church holds no ground. First of all: it is a church, which is a church and not a product I buy. A church is supposed to advertize for its religion. If I don’t want to see that “Jesus Saves” advertizing, I avoid looking at it or even passing that church. I can do that whenever I want, no? On the other hand, if someone who is member of that religion sells me a product which has no reference whatsoever to have any connection to the religion, to the church to no matter what they do there or believe there, yet includes in that product I paid for some proselytizing text, that is misleading me as a client. That is putting me in a position where I have no choice to avoid it, since it is shoved down my throat. That is exploiting my trust in the product to proselytize on me and there is no way anyone can make me “accept” that as the “rigth” of the producer or retailer. It is in fact a breach of the salescontract. Or do you find it OK for me to build you a house and engrave here and there some Quranic verses in the walls, the wood, the basements, where ever I find a place to hide them. Which you only discover by sheer accident when you live there. You would accept that with no comment at all? That is exactly the same as hiding religious messages in, on, coming with any sort of product you buy in good faith that there is no connection whatsoever between them and religion. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/38 "2004-01-02T20:58:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > **I have a question in return: Do you support the death penalty?** No. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/39 "2004-01-02T21:00:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > **If I buy something I have the right to expect not to be in any need to discuss the product in question, its package or whatever that is coming with it unexpected, invisible, unwanted.** Once again, Buyer Beware. You are responsible for ensuring that whatever you buy is legal in whatever jurisdiction you seek to transport it to. What, are shopkeepers supposed to make sure that whatever they sell is legal anywhere? > [@](#): > > It is my right to keep any proselytizing material and anyone who tries to proselytize on me as far away from my personal life as I want. Not in America. > [@](#): > > Is is also a transgression of … my right to keep everything related to his religion far from me, and my right - since as I have paid the price for the product - to enjoy or use it the way I was misled to believe I could. Wow, you sure are creating a lot of rights there. None of these exist in America. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322/40 "2004-01-02T21:05:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duckster \* > \*\*Getting back to the OP, I have a few questions … > > - Should there be a difference between a common carrier (Alaska Airlines in this case) with monopoly status along some of its routes, as opposed to another common carrier where a traveller can choose to fly it or another airline? If so, how would this not be a double standard?\*\* Yes, special provisions regulating the behavior of a monopoly are justifiable. It’s not a double standard because you’re dealing with two different situations, one a healthy free market, the other a monopoly. > [@](#): > > - What about a regulated ultility? “Thank you for dialing AT&T. All of our operators are busy. In order to pass the time until the next operator is available, here are some soothing words from the Bible …” Again, I would see no philosophical impediment to regulating such behavior if the utility was a monopoly. However, I would not encourage such a course. > [@](#): > > - What if that regulated utility is the _only_ utility for a specific area, say an electrical utility or a cable company? In the case of the latter, one could choose not to have cable. However, in the case of the former, must one go without electricity just to not be subjected to their religious bent? \*\* All utilities should be government owned, IMO, which would address this issue. However, if the monopoly is government-granted (ie, the state allows only one X carrier) then I think that there should be regulations. Otherwise, what’s to stop them from, say, refusing service to non-Christians? Private businesses have every right to discriminate like that, ya know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-proselytizing-and-business-oil-and-water/222322.md?page=3)