# Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138 "2021-11-05T20:10:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/1 "2021-11-05T20:10:08Z")
Christmas, as the majority of society celebrates it, is now entirely secular, on a par with Thanksgiving. There’s no real rationale for objecting to it as a holiday on the grounds of its religious roots. And I say this as a completely non-religious person. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/2 "2021-11-05T20:35:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Christmas, as the majority of society celebrates it, is now entirely secular, on a par with Thanksgiving. There’s no real rationale for objecting to it as a holiday on the grounds of its religious roots. And I say this as a completely non-religious person And as a non-religious person of Jewish heritage I say that isn’t so. Yes, the holiday has large secular components. But it’s still a religiously based holiday, and it’s still celebrated as a religious holiday by a very large number of people. Maybe not where you are; but certainly where I am, and everywhere else I’ve lived in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/3 "2021-11-05T20:56:20Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Yes, the holiday has large secular components. The secular components are what it’s all about now. The presents, the eggnog, the completely non-Christian tree, the Fat Man. That’s what Christmas _is_ now. Yes, people go to Christmas service, and some of the carols are religious, but that’s not what the holiday is _about_, and hasn’t been for years. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/4 "2021-11-05T22:52:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The secular components are what it’s all about now. The presents, the eggnog, the completely non-Christian tree, the Fat Man. That’s what Christmas _is_ now. Yes, people go to Christmas service, and some of the carols are religious, but that’s not what the holiday is _about_ , and hasn’t been for years You don’t live where I live. That most certainly is what the holiday’s about, for quite a lot of people in the USA. It’s not remotely like Halloween, which is indeed secular as a cultural holiday. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/5 "2021-11-05T23:20:40Z")
I actually agree with MrDibble here.🤯 Sure Christmas started as a minor Saints feast day, with prayers, candles, etc. But it was no big deal. But ever since Charlemagne turned it into party day so he could celebrate his big day with some religious trappings, Christmas has been more and more secular. For the average American I know, it is secular. Listen to Christmas songs on a hits station, very few are religious, maybe a Silent Night, and a Little Drummer Boy. Thanksgiving and Halloween started as religious days also. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2021, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/6 "2021-11-05T23:30:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > For the average American I know, it is secular. Maybe I know a wider variety of people. It’s secular, or even ignored as much as possible [ETA: it’s not very possible], for some of the people I know. For others, it is very much a religious holiday. And some of those make a significant point of it. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/7 "2021-11-06T00:07:29Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And as a non-religious person of Jewish heritage I say that isn’t so. Same here. IMO, people who don’t see the religious components of the Christmas season generally come from a Christian background. Those completely secular components are seeped in religious history. For someone raised Jewish, all those trappings are intimately tied with Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/8 "2021-11-06T00:23:09Z")
Tree= pagan yule log=pagan Rudolph= commercial Frosty= commercial mistletoe=pagan etc ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/9 "2021-11-06T00:54:15Z")
Angel on the tree – Christian Hymns on the radio and over store loudspeakers – Christian Hymns at official village etc. celebrations – Christian Star of Bethlehem – Christian Manger displays – Christian Angels in the windows and on the front lawns – Christian Church services widely promoted – Christian About 90% of the cards around here, in imagery and/or wording --Christian Paintings of Virgin Mary on USPS stamps – Christian “Real Christmas” references – Christian “Jesus Is The Reason For the Season” – Christian ‘Say Merry Christmas, not Happy Holidays’ – belligerent Christian etc. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/10 "2021-11-06T01:41:10Z")
And yet, growing up Jewish we had none of them, because they were all part of a Christian holiday. Regardless of their origins, they’ve been incorporated into a religious holiday and now have Christian connotations. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/11 "2021-11-06T07:54:56Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > all those trappings are intimately tied with Christianity. Many of them _originate_ in Christianity, but they are not tied to it anymore. > [@Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/301): > > Angel on the tree – Christian > Hymns on the radio and over store loudspeakers – Christian > Hymns at official village etc. celebrations – Christian > Star of Bethlehem – Christian I mean, _seriously_, Christmas tree angels as an example of the religious nature of the holiday? That’s adorbs. There are as many secular Xmas songs as religious ones and they all blur together in usage, which effectively secularizes the religious ones into mere background noise- nothing religious about _Jingle Bells_ or _Let It Snow_ or _White Christmas_ or _Santa Baby_. Just caroling, by itself, is a pagan tradition. > [@Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/301): > > “Real Christmas” references – Christian > “Jesus Is The Reason For the Season” – Christian > ‘Say Merry Christmas, not Happy Holidays’ – belligerent Christian And the _reason_ for these backlashes…? The secularization of Christmas. If Christmas was still largely about Christ and not Santa, this degree of backlash wouldn’t be happening. > [@Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/302): > > And yet, growing up Jewish we had none of them, because they were all part of a Christian holiday. Does it occur to you that your upbringing may have primed you to see a lot more religiosity in Christmas than the vast majority of people actually feel? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/12 "2021-11-06T14:22:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I mean, _seriously_ , Christmas tree angels as an example of the religious nature of the holiday? That’s adorbs. Yes, seriously, and kindly do not minimize me in that fashion. > [@MrDibble](#): > > There are as many secular Xmas songs as religious ones and they all blur together in usage, which effectively secularizes the religious ones into mere background noise- It does for you, apparently; because apparently, for you, Christianity is normed background noise. \ ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/13 "2021-11-06T14:32:23Z")
> [@Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/308): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > There are as many secular Xmas songs as religious ones and they all blur together in usage, which effectively secularizes the religious ones into mere background noise- > > It does for you, apparently; because apparently, for you, Christianity is normed background noise. > \ Yeah, the assertion that Christmas is not a Christian holiday holds about as much water as the assertion that Columbus Day is not a celebration of white colonialism. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/14 "2021-11-06T15:14:39Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Yes, seriously Christmas tree angels are tchotchkes, not religious icons. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > kindly do not minimize me in that fashion It’s not “minimizing you” to point out that considering holiday decorations to be serious, actual religious iconography is laughable. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > apparently, for you, Christianity is normed background noise For _most_ people, it is when it comes to Christmas - which is kind of my point. That’s what secularization _means_. If it’s background noise, that even the nonreligious enthusiastically partake in, it’s _not_ religion anymore. > [@Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/309): > > Yeah, the assertion that Christmas is not a Christian holiday The assertion is more that there is _a_ Christian holiday called Christmas, and then there’s a secular celebration _also coincidentally called Christmas_, and that the latter overshadows the former by quite a bit. I’m not saying there’s _no_ Christian Christmas. I’m saying there are two Christmases, and that IME, secular Santafest is the bigger of the two in modern 21st century Western society. And that the religious iconographies on public display are largely trappings, not serious spiritual practice. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/15 "2021-11-06T15:21:33Z")
> [@Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/310): > > It’s not “minimizing you” to point out that considering holiday decorations to be serious, actual religious iconography is laughable. It is certainly minimizing the argument. And there’s nothing laughable about it. You’re floating in water that you’ve been in all your life and denying that the water exists. > [@Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/310): > > > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > > apparently, for you, Christianity is normed background noise > > For _most_ people, it is when it comes to Christmas - which is kind of my point. For most people of Christian heritage, Christianity is indeed their normed background. It’s mostly other people who see it. That doesn’t mean it’s not there. > [@Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/310): > > I’m not saying there’s _no_ Christian Christmas. I’m saying there are two Christmases, and that IME, secular Santafest is the bigger of the two in modern 21st century Western society. Try re-naming the US government-sanctioned holiday Santafest and see what happens. I guarantee you, it wouldn’t be pretty. No USA politician, whatever their private beliefs, is going to suggest such a thing in public; it would be instant political suicide. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/16 "2021-11-06T15:32:44Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > it is certainly minimizing the argument. That’s not the same thing. > [@](#): > > And there’s nothing laughable about it. Yes, there is. What’s next, calling out Elf on a Shelf as Norse Pagan iconography? > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > You’re floating in water that you’ve been in all your life and denying that the water exists. I’m well aware of the prevalence of Christian symbolism in modern Western society. I just assert that not all of it still carries religious weight. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > For most people of Christian heritage, Christianity is indeed their normed background I’m not “of Christian heritage”. I wasn’t raised Christian, and most of my friends growing up (and some of my family) were Muslim. Who all got presents at Christmas, BTW. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Try re-naming the US government-sanctioned holiday Santafest and see what happens. I guarantee you, it wouldn’t be pretty. No USA politician, whatever their private beliefs, is going to suggest such a thing in public; it would be instant political suicide. The presence of a vocal Christian lobby doesn’t really have relevance to the actual content of what they’re complaining about. They’ll object to the renaming - and go right back to shopping for those holiday deals right after. That’s the _real_ Christmas worship. Christmas is the religious holiday of the Great God Commerce and his demigods Kitsch and Nostalgia. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/17 "2021-11-06T15:37:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The assertion is more that there is _a_ Christian holiday called Christmas, and then there’s a secular celebration _also coincidentally called Christmas_ , and that the latter overshadows the former by quite a bit. I’m not saying there’s _no_ Christian Christmas. There is a celebration of white colonialism called Columbus Day, and then there’s a non-racial celebration. _also coincidentally called Columbus Day_, and the latter overshadows the former by quite a bit. Is anyone buying that? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/18 "2021-11-06T15:39:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, there is. What’s next, calling out Elf on a Shelf as Norse Pagan iconography? > [@MrDibble](#): > > The presence of a vocal Christian lobby doesn’t really have relevance to the actual content of what they’re complaining about. They’ll object to the renaming - and go right back to shopping for those holiday deals right after. That’s the _real_ Christmas worship. Christmas is the religious holiday of the Great God Commerce and his demigods Kitsch and Nostalgia. I don’t think there’s any sense carrying on this discussion. That’s an utterly absurd comparison; and you’re claiming to know for a large group of people, who would vehemently deny it, that what they’re saying is irrelevant and that their religious faith doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/19 "2021-11-06T15:39:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The presence of a vocal Christian lobby doesn’t really have relevance to the actual content of what they’re complaining about. They’ll object to the renaming - and go right back to shopping for those holiday deals right after. That’s the _real_ Christmas worship. Christmas is the religious holiday of the Great God Commerce and his demigods Kitsch and Nostalgia. Man, you sound like someone defending their “Southern Heritage”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/20 "2021-11-06T15:47:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > There is a celebration of white colonialism called Columbus Day, and then there’s a non-racial celebration. _also coincidentally called Columbus Day_ , and **the latter overshadows the former by quite a bit.** I bolded where the comparison falls apart… > [@Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/314): > > I don’t think there’s any sense carrying on this discussion. I guess not. > [@Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/314): > > That’s an utterly absurd comparison Not as absurd as thinking Christians worship Christmas tree ornaments. > [@Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/314): > > you’re claiming to know for a large group of people, who would vehemently deny it, that what they’re saying is irrelevant and that their religious faith doesn’t exist. I don’t think their religious faith doesn’t exist, and you can’t quote me saying it. What I am saying is that when it comes to Christmas, specifically, their actions speak louder. > [@Columbus Day v Indigenous People's Day v Leif Erikson Day](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/columbus-day-v-indigenous-peoples-day-v-leif-erikson-day/952323/315): > > Man, you sound like someone defending their “Southern Heritage”. Speaking of absurd comparisons… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138.md?page=2)