# Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 5, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138 "2021-11-05T20:10:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 11
### Author:  [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/202 "2021-11-12T17:34:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Ok, I _think_ have a better idea of where you’re coming from. It’s some kind of … purity test?.. that Christmas-celebrating Jews have apparently failed.
You could put it that way. And yes. Many Jewish communities would not accept anyone who had a Christmas tree, or otherwise did their own celebration of Christmas.
(Showing up at the office party to fulfill secular social obligations is okay, though. But less awkward if they call it a holiday party. Which most employers do.)
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### Author:  [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/203 "2021-11-12T17:35:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> “Everyone else is doing it, why don’t we?” was more-or-less what I was told the thinking was.
I wonder if this may help you understand why people are talking about how steeped in Cultural Christianity you are.
No Jewish person would get baptized because everyone else is doing it.
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### Author:  [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/204 "2021-11-12T17:38:51Z")
I feel my ignorance has been somewhat fought in this thread. Since my atheist half Jewish half “Lutheran” (mother’s family, also not practicing) family celebrated Christmas and Easter without any reference to Jesus whatsoever, I imagined other secular families were rather similar. Sometimes gelt would show up in our stockings, I thought nothing of it.
Some of my Jewish friends didn’t celebrate Christmas but I thought nothing of that either. They were doing their own thing, so what. It didn’t strike me that Christmas would be seen as oppressive to people who weren’t Christians. But I guess for some it really does.
I find modern Christmas oppressive but it’s the capitalism and yucky schmaltz. I loathe Christmas music except hymns, which are sung in church, period.
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/205 "2021-11-12T18:20:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> > [@thorny\_locust](#):
> >
> > Who the hell is doing that?
>
> Kimstu, in post #52
In which Kimstu actually said:
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> FFS, dude, you’re expecting non-Christian Americans to treat the iconography of Christian angels etc. as a neutral de-religionized element of a shared secular holiday, even though in your next breath you can point out how Max\_S is wrong in expecting Black Americans to treat the iconography of the white Founding Fathers as a neutral de-racialized element of shared cultural identity?
>
> To paraphrase your own words: “You don’t see how that doesn’t necessarily map onto how American non-Blacks see these things as being? That while you see them as ‘too “slavey”’, most see them as background, not racial oppression.”
That is in no way comparing slavery to trinkets. That is comparing the iconography of Christian angels to the iconography of the Founding Fathers; and comparing the historic oppression of Black people to the historic oppression of Jews. Which is not remotely the same thing.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> > [@thorny\_locust](#):
> >
> > It is Christian now because it’s been absorbed by a Christian religious ritual
>
> Only if you grant the premise that it has been absorbed by a religious ritual, as opposed to taken up by a secular holiday…
You appear to be arguing that the holiday is secular because the holiday is secular.
> [@Thing.Fish](#):
>
> Don’t we all agree that Christmas is a traditional religious holiday that, in modern times, has accumulated a great many associated traditions which don’t have any obvious connection to actual Christianity? And that many people, including some non-Christians, enjoy celebrating it in ways devoid of Christian significance? And that for many other people, including many who also get deep into the trees-and-Santa aspect, it is indeed a day of deep religious significance?
MrDibble appears to me to be arguing that it’s not a day of deep religious significance for much of anybody anywhere in the world, except maybe for a minority so tiny that they can be considered not to matter.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> The actual debate I thought I was participating in in the original thread is over whether it should be a federal holiday or not, as a contrast with Columbus Day.
>
> My argument is that it’s _sufficiently_ secularized to not count as a religious holiday for e.g. Establishment Clause purposes.
Which appears to rest on your argument that nearly all Christians aren’t celebrating a religious holiday, but only a commercial one.
> [@Thing.Fish](#):
>
> My position is that the vast majority of Americans don’t want to work on Christmas, so it should be a holiday.
It is increasingly less and less so, except for Federal employees. Many stores and places of recreation are now open on Christmas; though there’s recently been some backlash against this.
> [@Thing.Fish](#):
>
> Those who insist on saturating their holiday with religiosity and those who refuse to participate at all due to religious scruples are both minorities.
See posts 81 and 87. 67% celebrate it as a religious holiday, which is a strong majority; 35% as strongly so, which is a minority but quite a large chunk of people; 46% of voters think it should be more strongly emphasized as a religious holiday.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> when it comes time to decide if the US as a whole should get a day off, should the minority cultural outlier perspectives be the determinant, when secular Christmas neither picks their pocket nor breaks their leg?
Whether it’s a federal holiday or not affects whether it’s a day off or not only for Federal workers.
> [@yarblek](#):
>
> > [@puzzlegal](#):
> >
> > I don’t think anyone in this thread was arguing against Christmas being a federal holiday.
>
> Incorrect:
>
> What I’ve said, quite clearly, is that I don’t think it should be a Federal holiday
As I believe @Babale also said: that quote’s correct, but it’s incomplete, and the full quote changes the meaning:
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> What I’ve said, quite clearly, is that I don’t think it should be a Federal holiday (which also would in no way be ‘taking it away’), but that I acknowledge it’s entirely impractical to try to make that change
> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> I don’t think anyone in this thread was arguing against Christmas being a federal holiday. I certainly wasn’t.
I’m arguing that technically it shouldn’t be, as it’s a Federal recognition of one religion to the exclusion of all others (and to the lack of any); but I’ve also been saying, quite clearly, that it’s utterly impractical to call for its abolition as a Federal holiday in anything resembling the current situation.
Those who are saying ‘but everybody should get the day off!’ are also, presumably, in favor of all private businesses including stores, restaurants, and places of entertainment being closed. Currently some of them close, some of them don’t.
> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> Most of the country wants to take it off from work, and staffing that day would be a bitch if it weren’t a holiday.
>
> My town gives kids Yom Kippur off from school because they couldn’t hire enough teachers that day. No one argues that Yom Kippur isn’t a religious holiday. But it’s practical to close the schools. They shut the schools on Good Friday in the same decision. A third of the students were taking Good Friday off, and that was also an administrative nuisance. No one claimed that Good Friday wasn’t a religious holiday, either. I think either claim would have been offensive, frankly.
That’s a fair argument.
Some school districts etc. deal with Good Friday by calling it “spring break”. Spring break, every year, mysteriously coincides with Good Friday, though it may be a bit longer than just the one day.
That solution also works for Christmas for schools, which generally take off the whole stretch from around Dec 24 until around January 2nd, and can (and often do) just call it “winter break”; but while I’d personally be happy to live in a society in which everything but emergency services shut down for that long, the society as a whole wouldn’t work well with that at all.
> [@Babale](#):
>
> Well, TO YOU, a Christmas tree represents only commercialism. To people who don’t have your culturally Christian perspective, a Christmas tree 100% represents Christianity.
He’s not a Christian.
– well, wait a minute.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> I’m not “of Christian heritage”. I wasn’t raised Christian, and most of my friends growing up (and some of my family) were Muslim. Who all got presents at Christmas, BTW.
That reads to me as if MrDibble was raised in a non-religious fashion in a society so imbued with background Christianity that even the Muslims got Christmas presents.
What’s missing here is any recognition of the extent to which the background assumptions of Christianity can permeate a society. It’s really hard to see one’s own back-of-the-head assumptions – until one sees them, at which point they can be as glaringly obvious as they often are to those who don’t share them.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> “Everyone else is doing it, why don’t we?” was more-or-less what I was told the thinking was.
The only sense I can make out of this is either:
\ you were so soaked in not-consciously-recognized Christianity it seemed utterly normal to be baptized
or
/ you grew up in an atmosphere of thinking that almost nobody really believes their religion, it’s all just a batch of tsotchkes that don’t mean anything in particular.
If it’s the latter, that might explain a lot of this thread.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Your experience being limited/constrained is kind of why this thread exists.
>
> It happens, I have personal experience with members of _each_ of those beliefs having Christmas trees and exchanging presents.
Nobody has said that it doesn’t happen.
But it’s really strange to see you saying “Your experience being limited/constrained is kind of why this thread exists” as if it weren’t you that this applies to.
---
### Author:  [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/206 "2021-11-12T18:26:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> > [@thorny\_locust](#):
> >
> > Yes, the holiday has large secular components.
>
> The secular components are what it’s all about now. The presents, the eggnog, the completely non-Christian tree, the Fat Man. That’s what Christmas _is_ now. Yes, people go to Christmas service, and some of the carols are religious, but that’s not what the holiday is _about_, and hasn’t been for years.
Claiming the holiday is not “about” religion for most people is a dramatic goalpost move from the OP, which claimed that the holiday is “entirely secular”.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> I mean, _seriously_ , Christmas tree angels as an example of the religious nature of the holiday? That’s adorbs.
If you’re going to be derisive and snarky about this . . . well, I can’t respond appropriately in GD.
Also, you seem to be wildly focused on your personal feelings as an atheist as somehow representative of how “everyone” thinks about Christmas.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> The assertion is more that there is _a_ Christian holiday called Christmas, and then there’s a secular celebration _also coincidentally called Christmas_ ,
For reals? What a coink-y-dink! 🙄
Anyway, to add an anecdote: I belong to a volunteer organization. In advocating for some non-Christian members, I was participating in a discussion about whether we were excluding/othering Jews and others by always turning December into a Christmas-centered month with events that many of the non-Christians don’t feel comfortable participating in (while also not recognizing religious holidays of any of the rest of our membership/community).
The upset pushback I got from otherwise welcoming and secular/cultural Christians about the fact that there is nothing religious about it, anyone was allowed to join in and secularly sing “Hark the Herald Angels Sing, Glory To The Newborn King” or “Christ the Savior is Born”, and it’s just about the “season”, and everybody celebrates Christmas (even though I was representing people who explicitly did not) was shocking, and so we shouldn’t listen to anybody or change anything, even if some of the Jews in the organization are feeling left out (and we found one who says he doesn’t care, so I guess that’s definitive).
Christmas is “just secular background noise” until you call any piece of it into question. Then it suddenly becomes the most important and sacred tradition.
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### Author:  [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/207 "2021-11-12T18:59:58Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#):
>
> I loathe Christmas music except hymns, which are sung in church, period.
Plenty of hymns are played outside of church, period.
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### Author:  [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/208 "2021-11-12T19:07:48Z")
Speaking from my experience only I worked for 40 years in businesses that were, on average about 80% Jewish in terms of the make-up of employees and customers , in a city with a large Jewish population.
I have had dozens, if not hundreds, of Jewish coworkers and clients. Once, one of them celebrated Christmas - because his brother married a Christian woman that was really into Christmas.
We had a sort of amusing discussion about it afterwards, I laughed at his puzzlement over the “hanging socks over the fireplace thing”, but it is sort of an odd thing if you’re completely unfamiliar with Christmas. And he was completely unfamiliar with Christmas, to an extent that surprised me.
But that was it for Christmas celebrations. I do not know any other Jewish person that ever celebrated Christmas in any way, shape or form other than to take off work on the federal holiday. They didn’t put up Christmas trees or hand out presents on the morning of December 25th. They didn’t tell their kids about Santa. They didn’t celebrate Christmas, period. None of them. Ever. If you wished them Merry Christmas they would politely inform you that they were Jewish and didn’t celebrate Christmas.
Maybe it’s different for Jewish people living in primarily Christian environments, but my experience is that while there are secular elements, people of all faiths actually don’t come together to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/209 "2021-11-12T19:17:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> So are you saying the Jews who _do_ celebrate Christmas are … converts? Apostates? Not _really_ Jewish?
In this day and age, it means that they’ve been raised with little education about Judaism and are therefore ignorant of its doctrinate boundaries. “Apostate” would seem to imply a deliberate, knowledgeable rejection of the religion, which I don’t think is a category that the huge majority of tree-decorating Jews fall into.
The Jewish term for this is “tinok shenishba” - a Jewish infant who was kidnapped by non-Jews. Such an individual worshipping the religion he/she was raised in is not considered a sinner.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/210 "2021-11-12T19:26:59Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#):
>
> I wonder if this may help you understand why people are talking about how steeped in Cultural Christianity you are.
Something that happened when I was a few weeks old has zero bearing on my actual life.
I’ve also fasted for a full Ramadan, doesn’t make me steeped in Islam.
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### Author:  [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/211 "2021-11-12T19:34:47Z")
I wouldn’t compare fasting for one full Ramadan to be akin to participating in the Christian entrance rite, but that’s just me. Cultural Christianity doesn’t necessarily mean you are actively believing in it, but that you exist in a society so steeped in Christianity that you can be baptized “because everyone else was doing it”.
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### Author:  [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/212 "2021-11-12T19:43:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Something that happened when I was a few weeks old has zero bearing on my actual life.
But the fact that your family would include you in an inherently religious and extremely significant Christian event speaks against the idea that your environment wasn’t impacted heavily by religion.
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### Author:  [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/213 "2021-11-12T19:44:23Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#):
>
> But that was it for Christmas celebrations. I do not know any other Jewish person that ever celebrated Christmas in any way, shape or form other than to take off work on the federal holiday. They didn’t put up Christmas trees or hand out presents on the morning of December 25th. They didn’t tell their kids about Santa. They didn’t celebrate Christmas, period.
Yeah, I’ve known plenty of Jews who did those things - and every single one of them is married to a non-Jew who celebrates Christmas. I say “non-Jew who celebrates Christmas” rather than Christian because plenty of these spouses are not Christian ( not even by background) but instead come from cultural backgrounds where it is common for people to “mix and match” religious rituals and practices and it is not seen as inconsistent to have a Christian wedding and a Buddhist funeral. The people I’m talking about are not[Japanese](https://www.insidejapantours.com/blog/2020/09/16/cradle-to-the-grave-birth-marriage-and-death-in-japan/) but this article kind of explains what I am talking about - but I do not know of a non-Asian culture/religion that has that attitude.
---
### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/214 "2021-11-12T19:57:37Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> That is in no way comparing slavery to trinkets.
The paraphrase was exactly a one-for-one substitution.
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> You appear to be arguing that the holiday is secular because the holiday is secular.
I’m arguing that the holiday is secular because the majority of its practices are secular.
So entirely unlike arguing that the holiday is religious because it started out religious.
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> MrDibble appears to me to be arguing that it’s not a day of deep religious significance for much of anybody anywhere in the world
Again, making up bullshit that I have not said.
Which tells me you don’t actually have a counterargument to what I’ve actually said.
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> Which appears to rest on your argument that nearly all Christians aren’t celebrating a religious holiday, but only a commercial one.
More bullshit I didn’t say.
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> Whether it’s a federal holiday or not affects whether it’s a day off or not only for Federal workers.
Many large companies line up with many federal holidays too, though… sure, not President’s Day , and (ironically) mostly not Columbus Day, but Memorial Day, Labor Day, and yeah, Christmas.
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> That reads to me as if MrDibble was raised in a non-religious fashion in a society so imbued with background Christianity that even the Muslims got Christmas presents.
We’ve already established your reading needs work, given the things you’ve apparently thought I posted that I have not.
I was raised in a society where Christmas is _so secularized_ that even some Muslims have no problem participating in it.
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> The only sense I can make out of this is either:
Or the excluded middle of : I grew up in an atmosphere of recognizing when people are practicing their religion and when they’re just doing non-religious things, and also knowing that some people can do things that are religious to others but not to themselves. That things and acts aren’t magically religious in-and-of-themselves, but only what the humans involved do with them.
As opposed to the people whose culture and religion are so entwined they project that on everyone else, and can’t conceive how it’s possible to partition the religious from the secular. And then project that failure of conception onto everyone in society.
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> Nobody has said that it doesn’t happen.
Did I _say_ anyone had said it didn’t happen?
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> But it’s really strange to see you saying “Your experience being limited/constrained is kind of why this thread exists” as if it weren’t you that this applies to.
I’m not the one projecting from the parochial to the masses. I’m the one looking at how the masses actually celebrate the holiday.
> [@Eonwe](#):
>
> Claiming the holiday is not “about” religion for most people is a dramatic goalpost move from the OP, which claimed that the holiday is “entirely secular”.
> Christmas, **as the majority of society celebrates it** , is now entirely secular
> [@Eonwe](#):
>
> If you’re going to be derisive and snarky about this . . . well, I can’t respond appropriately in GD.
The Pit’s right there, knock yourself out. →
> [@Eonwe](#):
>
> Also, you seem to be wildly focused on your personal feelings as an atheist
I’m not an atheist.
> [@ISiddiqui](#):
>
> I wouldn’t compare fasting for one full Ramadan to be akin to participating in the Christian entrance rite,
My “participation” was probably limited to crying and pissing in the font. I participated way more in the fast than I did in my own baptism.
> [@Telemark](#):
>
> But the fact that your family would include you in an inherently religious and extremely significant Christian event speaks against the idea that your environment wasn’t impacted heavily by religion.
Have I indicated that my wider environment was religion-_free_, in some way? I’m pretty sure I indicated quite the opposite. What it wasn’t, was “culturally Christian”. Broader Western society is, but not the part I was raised in. And when we get to broader society, well, then we’re back to that also being the same for Jews.
Also, there was no significance for us in my being baptized, never mind “extremely”. My mom didn’t even keep the certificate.
---
### Author:  [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/215 "2021-11-12T20:13:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> My “participation” was probably limited to crying and pissing in the font. I participated way more in the fast than I did in my own baptism.
Hence the being deeply embedded in Christian culture as your mother, who you say was atheist, felt like she should do it since everyone else was.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Also, there was no significance for us in my being baptized, never mind “extremely”. My mom didn’t even keep the certificate.
So why do it? It is literally a Christian entrance rite. Was it because others would talk if you weren’t? Was it because it was just something that was done? Because it definitely speaks to being culturally Christian more so than anything else you’ve said in this entire thread.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/216 "2021-11-12T20:17:01Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#):
>
> Hence the being deeply embedded in Christian culture as your mother, who you say was atheist, felt like she should do it since everyone else was.
Did _I_ say anything about “should”? She did it because she _could_, not because she felt pressure to. As a fucking lark.
I’m getting pretty fucking sick and tired of people making up shit they _think_ I said.
> [@ISiddiqui](#):
>
> So why do it?
Like I actually fucking said in plain fucking English - _for a lark_.
That’s just the kind of person my Mom was.
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### Author:  [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/217 "2021-11-12T20:18:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Did _I_ say anything about “should”? She did it because she _could_ , not because she felt pressure to. As a fucking lark.
This makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Why would one participate in a Christian entrance rite as a lark?
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/218 "2021-11-12T20:18:29Z")
Your lack of a sense of fun is not my concern. I bet your Mom never dyed her hair pink for a year in 1978, either.
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### Author:  [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/219 "2021-11-12T20:23:53Z")
What, was she snickering to herself when promising to raise you in the Christian faith and when the priest/pastor proclaimed that you now belong to Christ? Do people who aren’t religious generally consider a baptism worship service a fun occasion?
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### Author:  [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/220 "2021-11-12T20:29:27Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#):
>
> Plenty of hymns are played outside of church, period.
Not where I live. I guess I live in a weird part of the USA. You’d never hear Hark the Angels in a store or something. No Lo A Rose or O Come All Ye Faithful. I think they scrub all the overtly Christian stuff to forestall complaints such as the ones in this thread. It’s all White Christmas and Santa Baby.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/221 "2021-11-12T20:29:59Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#):
>
> What, was she snickering to herself when promising to raise you in the Christian faith and when the priest/pastor proclaimed that you now belong to Christ?
Quite probably, knowing my Mom.
> [@ISiddiqui](#):
>
> Do people who aren’t religious generally consider a baptism worship service a fun occasion?
Possibly just my mom, really. And my dad, of course, he did go along with it. Although to hear him tell it now, he had to be talked into it.
I know _I_ wouldn’t treat a religious rite like that quite that cavalierly. I’m not religious, but I’m not a dick, either. My mom could be a colossal dick. Fun people often are.
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