# Religious/Secular holidays in America (mostly Christmas, split from the Columbus Day thread)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 5, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138 "2021-11-05T20:10:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 12
### Author:  [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/222 "2021-11-12T20:36:32Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#):
>
> You’d never hear Hark the Angels in a store or something.
But you likely would hear it in a Christmas film. Hark! The Herald Angels Sing is featured in It’s a Wonderful Life and Charlie Brown Christmas.
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### Author:  [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/223 "2021-11-12T20:44:53Z")
Reading this thread I do wonder if there is an honest to God national cultural difference rearing its confounding head here. As in South African society may have internalized Christmas as a secular holiday to a somewhat greater extent than the United States. Which wouldn’t at all surprise me - the US is retrograde in terms of cultural religiosity compared to most of the Western world.
I mean I too was raised by secular Marxists who celebrated both Christmas AND Easter as secular holidays 🙂 . However from an American perspective I don’t think I can fully agree with Mr. Dibble on this one. And it’s a tough topic because Christmas IS really pretty secularized in the US, so it’s a totally fair argument to make. But I do strongly suspect, as those above polls I think bear out, that it may be less thoroughly secularized than in other countries.
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### Author:  [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/224 "2021-11-12T20:49:18Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#):
>
> But you likely would hear it in a Christmas film. Hark! The Herald Angels Sing is featured in It’s a Wonderful Life and Charlie Brown Christmas.
The first is from the 1940’s, and the second I have not watched for over fifty years. Not that this negates your point.
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### Author:  [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/225 "2021-11-12T20:50:52Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#):
>
> The first is from the 1940’s, and the second I have not watched for over fifty years. Not that this negates your point.
Sure they are both older films, but they are shown on broadcast television every year (well, until last year there was an uproar when Apple TV+ bought the rights to Charlie Brown Christmas… but it’s back on broadcast television this year, IIRC).
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/226 "2021-11-12T20:53:25Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#):
>
> South African society may have internalized Christmas as a secular holiday to a somewhat greater extent than the United States.
I’ve also experienced Western European Christmases (UK, Germany, France), and no, I’d say South Africa is pretty much on the same level as American and Western European ones. We are not, overall, a very non-religious country. But the degree of Christmas secularization is the same - given the pervasiveness of the US-originated Christmas media industry, it’d be strange for it not to be.
> [@Tamerlane](#):
>
> But I do strongly suspect, as those above polls I think bear out, that it may be less thoroughly secularized than in other countries.
I think there are other countries where it’s way _more_ religious than the US, like some Catholic countries.
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/227 "2021-11-12T20:55:55Z")
> [@doreen](#):
>
> come from cultural backgrounds where it is common for people to “mix and match” religious rituals and practices and it is not seen as inconsistent to have a Christian wedding and a Buddhist funeral. The people I’m talking about are not[Japanese](https://www.insidejapantours.com/blog/2020/09/16/cradle-to-the-grave-birth-marriage-and-death-in-japan/) but this article kind of explains what I am talking about - but I do not know of a non-Asian culture/religion that has that attitude.
I agree it’s not around here a widespread cultural attitude; but it’s my family’s attitude. Quite probably because we have members of multiple religious backgrounds, along with widely varying amounts of belief in them.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> The paraphrase was exactly a one-for-one substitution.
I genuinely haven’t the faintest idea how you can read it that way.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> I’m arguing that the holiday is secular because the majority of its practices are secular.
>
> So entirely unlike arguing that the holiday is religious because it started out religious.
I am not arguing that the holiday is religious because it started out religious. I am arguing that the holiday is religious in the USA because, to a large percentage of Christians in the USA, it is part of their current religious worship.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> > [@thorny\_locust](#):
> >
> > MrDibble appears to me to be arguing that it’s not a day of deep religious significance for much of anybody anywhere in the world
>
> Again, making up bullshit that I have not said.
>
> Which tells me you don’t actually have a counterargument to what I’ve actually said.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> > [@thorny\_locust](#):
> >
> > Which appears to rest on your argument that nearly all Christians aren’t celebrating a religious holiday, but only a commercial one.
>
> More bullshit I didn’t say.
I’ve been giving that counterargument repeatedly, all through this thread, including yet again in this post. And your reponse has consistently been that no, the holiday does not have deep religious meaning for any significant number of people.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> The secular components are what it’s all about now. The presents, the eggnog, the completely non-Christian tree, the Fat Man. That’s what Christmas _is_ now.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> They’ll object to the renaming - and go right back to shopping for those holiday deals right after. That’s the _real_ Christmas worship. Christmas is the religious holiday of the Great God Commerce and his demigods Kitsch and Nostalgia.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> For me, it means religious practice is the overwhelming point of the holiday, and occupies a significant part of the time spend celebrating the holiday. That is no longer the case with Christmas
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> I’m talking about _actual practice_ . You know, like how the _actual practice_ of Christmas _is_ largely secular.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> > [@Eonwe](#):
> >
> > Also, you seem to be wildly focused on your personal feelings as an atheist
>
> I’m not an atheist.
I can see why Eonwe thought so:
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> I’m also quite emphatically non-religious.
I am coming to the conclusion that communication with you on this subject isn’t going to be possible; because you persist in claiming that others have said things they haven’t said, and saying that you haven’t said things that you have said, while complaining that it’s the reading comprehension of others that is the problem.
It’s possible that you don’t mean the things you have said, and meant to say something else entirely by them. But in that case the confusion of others is not their fault.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/228 "2021-11-12T21:05:56Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> And your reponse has consistently been that no, the holiday does not have deep religious meaning for any significant number of people.
That’s not the same as " nearly all Christians aren’t celebrating a religious holiday, but **only** a commercial one." I have repeatedly acknowledged that there is a parallel religious holiday occurring.
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> I can see why Eonwe thought so:
I don’t.
Non-religious =/= atheist. I’ve explicitly named my theological noncognitivism in the thread
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> I am coming to the conclusion that communication with you on this subject isn’t going to be possible;
Well, if you and others are going to insist that I say things I haven’t, like that I’m an atheist, then yeah, it seems like it won’t be.
> [@thorny\_locust](#):
>
> It’s possible that you don’t mean the things you have said, and meant to say something else entirely by them. But in that case the confusion of others is not their fault.
No, the confusion is entirely on them, if they don’t read what I _actually_ say:
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> a completely non-religious person
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> in my non-Christian-raised theological noncognitivist view
and just substitute whatever word they feel suits best in there.
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### Author:  [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/229 "2021-11-12T21:12:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> I’ve explicitly named my theological noncognitivism in the thread
Interestingly enough on the article for theological noncognitivism on Wikipedia;
[Theological noncognitivism - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_noncognitivism)
It is listed as part of a series on Atheism.
So I don’t find it too surprising that folks are confused.
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### Author:  [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/230 "2021-11-12T21:23:06Z")
MrDibble, I’m sorry you’re feeling attacked. I don’t know to what extent it’s a cultural difference as opposed to your family just being extremely unusual, but I have literally never in my life heard of someone having their kid baptized “on a lark”. At least speaking for myself, I’m only asking questions because I’m really curious about how that worked, not because I’m trying to put you or your family down. Likewise, I’m very curious about why you fasted for Ramadan; did you consider yourself Muslim at the time? Because, again, I’ve literally never heard of anyone who didn’t identify as Muslim doing that, and I would be interested in hearing about it. But if your answer is “none of your business”, I’ll respect that.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/231 "2021-11-12T21:32:43Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#):
>
> I have literally never in my life heard of someone having their kid baptized “on a lark”
I have never encountered anyone else, either.
> [@Thing.Fish](#):
>
> Likewise, I’m very curious about why you fasted for Ramadan; did you consider yourself Muslim at the time?
No, I did it to keep my Muslim friends “company”, as it were, and also to see if I could. It’s not a _super_-unusual thing to do in my home community, I’m certainly not the only person I know to have done so. Usually in our late teens or early varsity.
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### Author:  [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/232 "2021-11-12T21:36:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> So are you saying the Jews who _do_ celebrate Christmas are … converts? Apostates? Not _really_ Jewish?
I would never use such loaded and offensive language, but at least “apostate” would seem to be literally accurate, in that they are observing rituals associated with another religion, which is pretty much the biggest no-no in Judaism. I would use the term “assimilated”, which isn’t a binary condition but a spectrum.
But from the traditional Jewish perspective, whether one is _really_ Jewish depends entirely on your ancestry, not on your actions or your professed belief system; if you convert to Catholicism and get elected Pope, you’re still a Jew, you’re just doing a really bad job of it. I personally believe that in this, as in other areas of life, the easiest and nicest policy is to call people whatever they would like to be called.
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### Author:  [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/233 "2021-11-12T21:37:03Z")
Well, thank you, I have learned something.
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### Author:  [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/234 "2021-11-12T21:41:53Z")
I realize that’s the standard Orthodox usage, but I find it problematic in that it equates non-Orthodox forms of Judaism with actual non-Jewish religions. In this case, it also seems inaccurate; tree-decorating American Jews aren’t intending to renounce their Jewishness by doing so, but surely the vast majority of them aren’t literally UNAWARE that they are violating traditional Jewish law by doing so
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/235 "2021-11-12T21:42:59Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#):
>
> but surely the vast majority of them aren’t literally UNAWARE that they are violating traditional Jewish law by doing so
Or they don’t AGREE that they are violating it at all.
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### Author:  [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/236 "2021-11-12T21:43:32Z")
Just to prevent any hijacks. If **MrDibble** says he’s not an Atheist, please respect that as there is no need to debate such. Nor should there be. This has happened before and leads to hijacks of threads. Also ends up at least seeming to attack the poster and not the post.
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### Author:  [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/237 "2021-11-12T21:49:46Z")
Christmas hymns are played in movies, television, commercials, on radio, and yes, even in stores. Maybe in some places more than others, but still across the country.
You’ve never seen A Charlie Brown Christmas?
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### Author:  [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/238 "2021-11-12T22:01:31Z")
No, there’s no real question that they are doing so. The law is very explicit. Notice I said the **traditional** law; only Orthodox Jews regard themselves as actually being bound by that law, but any even minimally knowledgeable Jew knows what the law IS. There are certainly many religious Jews who believe that under current American social conditions, it’s not necessary to be as scrupulous about avoiding non-Jewish religious events as it was for most of our history. And there are still other Jews who don’t give a rat’s ass about Jewish law, but will get highly pissed off if you suggest they’re any less Jewish than the guys with the black hats.
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### Author:  [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/239 "2021-11-12T22:06:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> That’s not the same as " nearly all Christians aren’t celebrating a religious holiday, but **only** a commercial one." I have repeatedly acknowledged that there is a parallel religious holiday occurring.
Religious Christians are not observing two separate holidays of the same name at the same time. It’s all one thing.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Well, if you and others are going to insist that I say things I haven’t, like that I’m an atheist, then yeah, it seems like it won’t be.
I’m not insisting that you’re an atheist. I’m saying that I can see why Eonwe thought so. That’s an entirely different statement.
I was, and am, pointing out that the miscommunication is due to your own words.
> [@Thing.Fish](#):
>
> whether one is _really_ Jewish depends entirely on your ancestry, not on your actions or your professed belief system
Nitpick: Non-Jews can convert to Judaism, though; in which case, their Jewishness does depend on their actions and professed belief system, at the time of and in the action of conversion.
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### Author:  [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/240 "2021-11-12T22:06:55Z")
Yeah, even here in the heart of the blue bubble, it’s sort of unusual to hear overtly religious Christmas songs played in stores or other public places, but certainly not unheard of.
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### Author:  [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)
#### Post date: [November 12, 2021, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/religious-secular-holidays-in-america-mostly-christmas-split-from-the-columbus-day-thread/954138/241 "2021-11-12T22:10:32Z")
Yes, nitpick acknowledged. Even then, though, assuming the conversion was sincere at the time it happened, you and all your female-line descendants are still Jewish forever, even if you change your mind the next day. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
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